STATE
vs. HAUPTMANN
January 8, 1935
[480] JOHN
J. SWEENY, sworn as a witness on behalf of the State.
Direct
Examination by Mr. Wilentz:
Q. With what police department were you
connected on the first day of March, 1932? A. Newark, New Jersey.
Q. You are still connected with that
department? A. I am.
Q. In what capacity? A. At the present
time I am in the Radio Division.
Q. You are a patrolman or an officer? A. Lieutenant.
Q. Were you a lieutenant then? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. In that capacity were you assigned to the
Lindbergh case? A. I was.
Q. Remembering that the crime occurred on
the first day of March, 1932, when did you get there? A. Toward evening of
the following day.
Q. When you got there towards evening, did
you [481] make an inspection of the wall on the east side? A. No, sir.
Q. The next day did you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. In company of whom? A. There were
several troopers there, the names of whom I can't recall.
Q. Did you make an observation of the east
wall? A. I did.
Q. What did you find on that wall? A. You
want me to tell how I got up on the wall?
Q. Yes, whatever you did and what you
found. A. I put the three sections of the ladder together with the help of
a couple of troopers.
Q. Sections of what ladder? A. This
ladder (indicating).
Q. Exhibit S‑32 for identification? A. Yes.
We put the foot of the ladder in the indentations that was made in the mud. We
raised the ladder to the building and we saw that that wasn't the method that
was used to get in.
Mr. Reilly: I move to strike it out as a
conclusion.
The Court: One moment. I didn't get it.
Mr.
Reilly: He lowered his voice.
(Answer read by the reporter.) Mr. Reilly: “Was
not.”
Q. Now, that was with the three sections? A. Yes.
Mr. Reilly: May I ask Mr. Sweeny to keep his
voice up? It is kind of difficult to hear.
[482] Q. When the ladder was up with these
three sections in this test and demonstration, did you look up at the building
at the point where it had reached the third and top and uppermost section? A. I
did.
Q. Did you find any marks there or anything?
A. We took the third section off then.
Q. Oh, I know. But first I want to know
about the three sections. A. No, sir. We did not.
Q. Then say so. Then you made a test and
examination with two sections, did you not? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And when you made the test and
examination with two sections, when the ladder rested against the wall of that
building, what did you observe? A. We saw marks where the top of the
ladder had rested against the masonry.
Mr. Reilly: I object to that as calling for a
conclusion.
The Court: He may tell what he saw.
Q. What kind of marks were they; that is
what I want to know? A. Scrape marks.
Q. Scrape marks on what? A. On the
masonry of the wall.
Q. What sort of scrape mark is it, what is
the color of it? A. It was whitewash stonework.
Q. Whitewashed stone? A. Yes.
Q. And the marks that you saw, was that
whitewashed stone or had it been scraped off the whitewash? A. There was a
slight scraping.
Q. What color did it leave? A. Darker
than the whitewash of the wall.
Q. And at about what point were these marks
that you talk of? A. About 30 inches below the window sill.
Q. What window sill? A. The window
sill on [483] the southeast corner of the building.
Q. Southeast window sill, southeast corner?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Of the building? A. Right.
Q. First floor or second floor? A. Second
floor.
Q. Was that the baby's nursery room? A. It
is.
Q. I see. So that you say about 30 inches?
A. About, approximately.
Q. Below that? A. Yes.
Q. These two marks were there? A. Right.
Q. How far apart were they? A. It
looked to me about ten inches or a foot.
Q. When you put this ladder up against the
building with the two sections, what have you to say as to whether or not the
dimension or the distance between those two marks was or was not approximately
the same distance between the top rung of the ladder? A. They were
identical.
Q. They were identical? A. Yes.
Q. Now, did you then—oh, by the way, did
you go up on another ladder? A. I did.
Q. Did you have another ladder there? A. Yes.
Q. So you were standing on another ladder while you were making the test,
is that it? A. Yes.
Mr. Wilentz: Is the other ladder here? Is that
the ladder referred to as Colonel Lindbergh's ladder? Is it here or isn't it,
that is all I would like to know for the moment.
Mr. Peacock: No, it isn't.
Mr. Wilentz: Well, we will pass that for a
second.
Q. Now did you take some sort of an
instrument which permitted you to magnify those marks and inspect them with a
magnifying glass? A. I did.
[484] Q. When you did that, applying the
magnifying glass to those marks that you just referred to, what did it reveal? A. Particles
of wood, small splinters.
Q. Small splinters of wood? A. Yes.
Q. Where? A. On the marks made by the
ladder, this ladder.
Q. So that there were particles of wood in
the marks that you referred to a minute ago, imbedded into the stone or
whatever it is there that the side of the building is made of, is that it? A. That
is right, yes, sir.
Q. Now, while you were making this test
with the other ladder, did you have a rung of that ladder which paralleled the
top of the second section of S‑32 for identification? A. We did.
Q. And from that point did you walk into
that window, or didn't you? A. I did.
Q. Did you have any difficulty getting in? A. No,
sir.
Q. How much do you weigh, sir? A. About
180. Q. How much did you weigh at that time? A. 175.
Q. Did you step in then from this other
ladder that we speak of, which we will have here in a little while, from about
the point where those marks were and into that nursery window, the southeast
window? A. We did.
Mr. Pope: We object to the question.
Mr. Wilentz: That is all.
Mr. Pope: We think the witness should tell us
what he did.
Q. Well, tell us then what you did,
officer. A. Well, after we got the spot where the kidnap ladder rested against
the masonry—
[485] Mr. Reilly: I move to strike that out.
Q. No, never mind that.
The Court: Where these marks were.
Q. After you got to the spot where the
marks were. A. We moved that ladder away.
Q. You moved—
(At this point an extension ladder was brought
into the court room.)
Mr. Wilentz: I think if your Honor please, we
will have to build something up here to hold these exhibits after a while.
Q. After you saw where the marks were, did
you remove the ladder, which is now S‑32 for identification? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you then—or then what did you do? A. Took
this extension ladder and put it this side of the marks that had been made by
this smaller ladder, and we extended the ladder about maybe two rungs.
Mr. Reilly: I move to strike out that portion about
the smaller ladder.
Mr. Wilentz: We consent to it.
Q. Up to the point where the marks were? A. Right.
Q. Then what? A. We had to move the
top of the ladder higher than the marks so as to allow the top rung of the
smaller ladder to be the same height as the extension ladder.
Q. You were talking about making the rungs
meet a portion of the other ladder? A. Yes, sir.
[486] Q. You mean S‑32 for Identification? A. That
is right.
Q. As you had reconstructed it and placed
it there, did you then, after removing S‑32 for Identification and placing this
other ladder, heretofore referred to, did you place it at about the same place
under the same conditions as you had had S‑32 for Identification? A. We
did.
Q. All right. Having done that, did you
walk up that ladder? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Then what did you do? A. Got into
the nursery window.
Q. How did you get in? A. Put my left
knee up on the window sill and then squirmed around and put my right foot in
and stepped down on the floor.
Q. Did you in doing that disturb the
suitcase that was there, if there was a suitcase? A. I did not.
Q. Were you able to get in, did you get
into that window without knocking the suitcase over? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did I understand you to say you weighed
180 pounds? A. Now, yes.
Q. What did you weigh then? A. About
175.
Q. 175. How tall are you, sir? A. Five
foot ten and a half.
Q. How old are you, if you don't mind
telling? A. Forty-five.
Q. If you don't mind, will you put your
notion of where the marks were on the picture. I will show you the picture and
also the map. That will help on the cross-examination. I show you Exhibit S‑38,
sir, a picture of the house and the east window. Will you give us your notion,
if you can describe it, or otherwise mark it, of about where these marks were
that you were referring to a minute ago as being approximately 30 inches below
the window sill. A. The top rung, the marks underneath the window sill,
was about 30 inches below the window sill and, [487] if I recall correctly, the
ladder sort of spraddled.
Q. Not the ladder. The marks. A. The
marks cut across the window.
Q. What do you mean by “cut across the
window”? A. The left—I had the ladder up there.
Q. Yes. Well, what I want to know is,—see
if we can help it,—what I want to know is was it directly under the center of
the window or to the right or left? A. It was not. The lefthand mark was
about six inches from the right hand casing.
Q. From the righthand casing. When you talk
about the righthand casing, is it the right hand as I look at it? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. So what you mean is it was more to the
right, is that what you mean? A. Right.
Q. As I face the map? A. Yes.
Q. Do you see those two marks X's that have
been placed on there? A. Yes.
Q. With relation to those X's, where were
the marks? A. About like it is marked there now.
Q. That is your judgment about thirty
inches below the window sill, is that it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right, that's all.
Mr. Wilentz: We were referring for the record to
the X's on Exhibit S‑2, is that it, Mr. Hauck?
Mr. Reilly: I wonder whether or not the clerk of
the court has a tape measure or whether we could bring one back after
adjournment.
The Court: Has anyone got a tape measure here in
court?
(No response.)
[488] Mr. Wilentz: We can get one.
The Court: Counsel may get one.
Cross-Examination
by Mr. Reilly:
Q. Mr. Sweeny, what time did you get there
for the first time? A. Around dusk of the following day.
Q. Then, you were shown certain things? A. No,
we were not.
Q. Well, you didn't discover any marks on
the building. A. I did.
Q. You weren't the first one to discover
them, were you? A. I don't know.
Q. Nobody told you they discovered them? A. No,
sir.
Q. You don't know how old the marks are? A. No,
sir.
Q. You don't know who made them or when
they were made? A. I don't know who made them.
Q. Not guess work. A. I don't know who
made them.
Q. Or when they were made. A. No.
Q. You weren't there when they were made? A. No,
sir.
Q. Now, is this the ladder you used for
your experiment? A. This one, yes.
Q. Sure about it? A. Quite sure.
Mr. Reilly: Shouldn't that be marked for
identification, for the purposes of illlustration?
Mr. Wilentz: I think—I am satisfied to have it
marked in evidence.
Mr. Reilly: Not in evidence.
[489] Mr. Wilentz: Well, I will follow your
suggestion.
Mr. Reilly: So we may talk about it and it may
appear on the record for identification and illustration.
The Reporter: It will be S‑40 for
identification.
(Garage ladder referred to was marked State
Exhibit S‑40 for identification.)
Q. Now, just what was the condition of the
ground around the two indentations when you arrived just about dusk? A. I
didn't go in and look at them.
Q. You didn't look at the indentations in
the ground? A. I didn't go back there, no, sir.
Q. Well, when did you perform these
experiments? A. The day following.
Q. What time of the day? A. In the
forenoon. Q. Who was there with you? A. There was half a dozen
troopers.
Q. All assisting in this experiment? A. Yes,
raising the ladder and looking on, and so forth.
Q. Where did you get the, what is the number,
Mr. Clerk, you have given us?
The Reporter: S‑40 for identification.
Q. S‑40, let's call this the garage ladder.
A. It was laying up against the building when I saw it.
Q. So that the first time you saw it, it
was up against the building? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now, what was the condition of the
nursery window on the outside when you got there? A. The window was up.
[490] Q. And no shutters on it? A. As
far as I can recall, there was a shutter on it.
Q. One or two? A. Two.
Q. Were they open? A. Open.
Q. Now, what is the length of sections 1
and 2 of the ladder in identification, known as S‑32? A. I didn't measure
them.
Q. Well, you were there performing an
experiment? A. Yes, sir.
Q. So that at the present time you do not
know the comparative length of 32 to 40? A. I do.
Q. By actual measurement? A. No, sir.
Q. Have you ever actually measured them? A. No,
sir.
Q. If I bring a tape measure this
afternoon, will you be good enough to measure them for me in front of the jury?
A. Yes, sir.
Mr. Wilentz: I suggest, if your Honor please—I
have no objection to Mr. Reilly measuring it this afternoon. It does not have
to be done by this witness.
Mr. Reilly: I don't think I will be through with
him.
Mr. Wilentz: Oh.
Mr. Reilly: As long as he is on the stand, I
would like him to perform his experiment here.
Mr. Wilentz: Well, that is not part of the experiment,
because he didn't measure it.
The Court: Well, Mr. Reilly seems to want this
witness to measure these ladders, and the witness seems to be willing to do it.
I sup- [491] pose that course might just as well be adopted.
Q. Now am I correct in saying that you
inserted the foot of 32 into the indentations? A. I didn't do it
personally, no, sir.
Q. Who did? A. One of the troopers.
Q. You don't know who it was? A. No,
sir.
Q. Did you find it in that position when
you came back to make your experiment? A. No.
Q. Were you there when he did it? A. When
he inserted the ladder into the indentations?
Q. Yes. A. Sure.
Q. You saw him do it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Then you ran up the three sections, is
that correct, of 32, first? A. The first time, yes, sir.
Q. Now when you ran up three sections of
32, in what position were the shutters of the nursery? A. Open.
Q. At any time during your experiment with
32 did you go up into the nursery, close the window of the nursery, and draw in
the shutters as far as they would go and try to lock them? A. No, sir.
Q. Weren't you told by people in that house
that when that room was closed for the night the window was closed but not
latched and the shutters were drawn in as far as possible but were not locked
because they were warped? A. No, sir.
Q. Then you never made an experiment with
Ladder No. 32 with the shutters closed as far as they would go? A. No,
sir.
Q. Any experiment you made was with the
window open and the shutters thrown back? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you ever go up the ladder and open
the window? A. No, sir.
Q. The window was already opened for you,
wasn't it? A. Yes, sir.
Mr. Reilly: Now, that is as far as I can go [492]
without the illustration.
Mr. Pope: Just one other question, Mr. Reilly.
By Mr. Reilly:
Q. Mr. Pope suggests did you in making the
experiment close the window? A. No, sir.
Q. How many experiments did you make? A. One.
Q. And that was on March 3rd, wasn't it? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. In the forenoon; correct? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. Now, when you went up Ladder No. 40, the
garage ladder, who stood at the foot of it? A. Several Troopers.
Q. Holding it? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you have to run any of this
extension up? A. Yes, sir.
Q. About how much? A. As near as I can
recall, one or two rounds.
Q. Then you just went up this Ladder 40 to
the top and you were 30 inches shy of the window still? A. Approximately.
Q. Will you point out here, please,
something in the courtroom? A. A little more than knee high.
Q. Brought you to about here (indicating on
jury box rail)? A. Approximately.
Q. From the top rung of 40, is that
correct? A. Yes, sir.
Q. As you approach the top of 40,—could you
go up there this afternoon? A. Yes.
Q. Could you? What would you hold on to after
your hands and the upper part of your body got above the top rung? A. The
window casing.
Q. You reached up, did you? A. It was
right in front of me.
[493] Q. It was 30 inches short, was it
not? As you came up there and got on the top—look at that ladder—as you go up
the ladder you hold on the side. A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have you ever been a fireman? A. Yes.
(Laughter.)
Q. So when you run up the ladder you hold
on the side, is that right? A. Yes.
Q. When you get up there you don't crouch
down. A. Not necessarily.
Q. No. How did you balance yourself when
your hands got above the top of the rung? A. I grabbed ahold of the
casing, the window.
Q. You reached up? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you hold one hand on the side to
steady yourself? A. I don't recall whether I did or not.
Q. But at some time your hands would be
above the top rung before you could reach the casing. A. Put your hand up
and hold on to the window sill.
Q. But if you are down on the third
rung—see that— A. Yes.
Q. How many feet down is that? A. From
the top rung to the third rung?
Q. From the top edge, two and a half or
three feet? A. It is more than thirty inches.
Q. When your foot is on that third rung,
your hands are up in the air, is that correct? A. Yes.
Q. And you are still 60 inches away from
the window, because the top of that ladder was 30 inches away from the sill,
you have told us. A. Right.
Q. So you are 60 inches, you are five feet
away from there. You haven't a five-foot reach, have you? A. I have got a
seven-foot reach.
Q. Of your arm? A. From my shoes.
Q. I am talking about from your shoulder
up.
Mr. Wilentz: If your Honor please, that is not
fair. The question was whether he had [494] a five-foot reach. It was clearly
intended apparently from where he stood, from his feet—
Mr. Reilly: That is quite true, but I want to
know what he held on to as he approached the top of the ladder five feet away
from the window.
Mr. Wilentz: I withdraw the objection.
The Court: Proceed, Mr. Reilly.
By Mr. Reilly:
Q. What did you hold on to as you got five
feet away from the window? Your hands were above—A. It is all in one
movement, you reach up and grab hold of the window sill.
Q. You did not have gloves on. A. No,
sir.
Q. You grabbed hold of the window sill. A. Yes,
sir.
Q. And you pulled yourself up. A. I
stood up straight.
Q. On the top rung? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did you do? A. I put my hand
in and took hold of the window casing.
Q. Inside of the room? A. Part of it,
where the window runs up and down.
Q. On the side? A. Yes.
Q. And you swung yourself in. A. Put
one leg right up in.
Q. But you did that because of your
training as a fireman. A. Possibly.
Q. How many years were you a fireman before
you went into the police department? A. Two years.
Q. How many years training did you have in
the fire department? A. Two years.
[495] Q. Six months before you went in, did
you not? A. No.
Q. None at all? A. No.
Q. No probation in those days, but you had
two years as a fireman running up and down ladders, is that correct? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. Also handling scaling ladders, right? A. Yes.
Q. And your old knowledge as a fireman came
back to you when you went up there. A. True.
Q. Is that one of the reasons they sent you
up the ladder? A. No.
Q. Well now, when you swung yourself into
the room did you have to swing sideways? A. Yes.
Q. You swung yourself around on the seat:
is that correct? A. Right.
Q. And then swung yourself off on the
floor? A. That is true.
Q. And in coming out, how did you come out?
A. Stepped up over—
Q. Feet first and swung around? A. Sat
on the window sill, yes.
Q. Now what did you do, as you swung out,
feet first—is that correct? A. That is correct.
Q. Then you would make a half turn: right?
A. Right.
Q. And what would you do with your right
arm? A. Hold on to the window case.
Q. What did you do with your left arm? A. Held
on to the window sill.
Q. Both arms were busy? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And then you would lower yourself thirty
inches until you felt the grip of the ladder? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Like a fireman, right? A. That is
right.
Q. Still hold on with the right hand or
left? A. Yes.
Q. —side? A. Yes.
Q. And reach down, wouldn't you, to get a
pur- [496] chase to balance? A. Carefully, yes.
Q. And that is what you did? A. Yes.
Q. Both hands were occupied? A. Yes.
Mr. Reilly: Yes. That is all for now.
Mr. Wilentz: I take it—are you through with the
witness?
Mr. Rosecrans: Not through with the witness.
Mr. Reilly: No, no, I thought we were going to
have the tape.
Mr. Wilentz: You want him back this afternoon?
Mr. Reilly: Yes.
Mr. Wilentz: Then there is no sense of my
commencing.
Mr. Reilly: I thought being 12:30, your Honor
might adjourn for lunch.
The Court: People in the courtroom will remain
where they are. We want to get the jury out without delay or confusion. The
jurors may go and return at 1:25. The prisoner Hauptmann is now remanded to the
custody of the Sheriff and we will take a recess until 1:45, and the audience
may now retire.
(Whereupon a recess was taken at 12:31 p.m.,
until 1:45 p.m.)
[497] AFTER RECESS. (1:48 p. m.)
JOHN
J. SWEENY, resumed the stand:
Cross-Examination
(continued) by Mr. Reilly:
Q. Have you your own tape, Lieutenant? All
right, use your own. Now, is it Captain Sweeny? A. Lieutenant.
Q. Lieutenant Sweeny, will you be good enough
to unhook this S‑32. A. (Witness unties ladder.)
Q. Now, I wonder if you could measure with
your tape the two sections that you say were used in the experiment, as they
would appear put up against the house. Is our tape longer than this?
Mr. Pope: Yes, ours is longer.
[498] Q. This is a long tape, Lieutenant. I
think you can run it right down. A. (Witness measures ladder with tape
furnished by Mr. Reilly.)
Q. Six-foot ten is the first one? A. Yes.
Q. I want the two sections, the two
sections that you used in the experiment. A. Three of them were the same
size.
Mr. Wilentz: Same height?
The Witness: Same height.
Q. Well, which did you use in the
experiment? Are those the two? A. (Witness indicates.)
Q. Will you measure them in front of the
jury. A. Six-ten.
Q. Six-ten. That makes—
Mr. Pope: Now will you give us that measure,
please?
Mr. Reilly: Six-ten each. That is 13 feet eight
inches; right?
Mr. Stockton: Yes.
Q. Now how were they joined in the
experiment? A. They were joined with a dowel. I didn't put them together.
Q. You saw them put together? A. Yes,
sir, they were joined with a dowel.
Q. You saw them when they were put
together? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now can you approximately back that 32,
this 32 (indicating), back to where you say the indentations were on the ground
in relation to the house, this wall (indicating on map) being the wall of the
house? Show me how the two sections were up against the wall at the time you
climbed Exhibit [499] S‑40? A. (The witness arranges the section.) About
like that.
Q. About how many inches do you say away
from the house? A. Forty inches, 42 inches.
Q. Pointing now to this section of the
Exhibit S‑32, was that used in the second experiment with the same ladder, or
the first experiment? A. The first.
Q. I want the two that were used in the
second experiment. A. (The witness picks up another section of the
ladder.)
Q. Now can you connect them and put them up
against the wall? A. With some help I guess I can.
Q. Can't you do it alone? A. I guess I
can.
(Witness lays two sections of ladder on floor.)
Mr. Reilly: Where is the dowel pin?
(Mr. Hauck furnishes the dowel pin.)
Mr. Wilentz: One side is enough.
The Witness: That will hold it.
Mr. Reilly: Yes, that will hold it.
Mr. Wilentz: Just wait a minute, Sweeny. Is that
sufficiently connected, that little part of the dowel pin?
Mr. Reilly: Enough to hold it at least.
Mr. Wilentz: Enough to hold it, all right.
Q. Now, at the time of the experiment, of
course, I assume the dowel pin was all the way through. A. It was.
Q. Did you go up this ladder? A. No,
sir.
[500] Mr. Wilentz: Referring to S‑32 for
identification.
Q. S‑32. But you just had it placed in the
position it is now in conformity with the Lindbergh home? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you have them exhibit 40 alongside
of it? A. We did.
Q. And it was put back here, was it, even
with the indentation marks? A. Yes.
Mr. Reilly: You had better take that down. It
may fall.
(The ladder was dismantled.)
By Mr. Reilly:
Q. Will you take Exhibit 40, please, put it
back approximately at the same place the other holes were in the ground, as shown
by Exhibit S‑37. I understood you to say that you had to run this up at least a
rung and a half or two rungs? A. About two rungs.
Q. Before you could get the same height as S‑32?
A. Right.
Q. But you did not at that time measure S‑32?
A. No, sir.
Q. As you have here before the jury? A. No,
sir.
Q. Will you turn this section the other
way, please. A. (The witness rearranged the sections of the ladder, S‑32
for Identification.)
Mr. Pope: No, the other way, this one here. Turn
it around, upside down.
(Witness turns a section of the ladder upside [501]
down. Mr. Wilentz has it turned rightside up again.)
Q. Will you turn it upside down?
Mr. Wilentz: Why, I mean?
Mr. Pope: That is the way he put it against the
wall.
Mr. Reilly: For illustration.
Mr. Wilentz: All right.
(Witness turns section of ladder upside down
again.)
Q. Now, it is possible, is it not, to affix
this portion of the ladder, the pin through here to this portion of the ladder
here, S‑3 2? A. It wouldn't bear any weight.
Q. I didn't ask you that, is it possible to
hook it? A. I think so.
Q. Now, if that portion was up against the
wall as it is now, how much space would there be from the bottom of the window
to this step? A. 60 inches.
Q. Sixty inches? A. Yes.
Q. And how much space the other way, so
inches? A. 30 inches.
Q. Thirty inches? A. Yes.
Q. You say only 60 inches 5 feet from here
to the edge of the window? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Is that the way you had it in your
experiment this morning when you said 5 feet 60 inches? A. No.
Q. Of course you never saw this ladder in
use. A. No.
[502] Q. Did you make any examination of
the shutters? A. No. sir.
Q. Did you take the shutters off? A. No.
Q. Do you know anybody that did? A. No,
sir.
Q. Weren't you interested in knowing
whether or not the shutters were closed that night? You can sit down,
Lieutenant, please. A. I was.
Q. Did you inquire? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were you told that the shutters of the
nursery were on the window and closed in as far as they would go except for a
little warping which prevented their being locked? A. Not at that time,
no.
Q. At any time did you learn that? A. Yes,
yes.
Q. Did you look for the warp? A. No.
Q. Never? A. No.
Q. Did you learn that all the other windows
of the nursery were closed, or rather, the shutters were closed and locked? A. Yes.
Q. Did you examine them? A. No. sir.
Q. At any time? A. No, sir.
Q. Were there any draperies on the windows?
A. No.
Q. Any shades A. No.
Q. No curtains? A. No.
Q. Even on the French doors? A. I
don't remember.
Q. What kind of shutters were they? A. Green
shutters, sort of lattice effect that you open up and down.
Q. Like Venetian blinds, work up and down? A. Yes.
Q. This arrangement here is for the third
section of the ladder to fit in, isn't it? A. I think that is for the
second section to fit in.
Q. That isn't—that is the first section,
the bottom? A. Yes.
Q. And doesn't this fit into the top of
this? A. It may.
[503] Q. Have you tried it? A. I don't
recall.
Q. It is the same width all the way down,
isn't it? A. It is, but it doesn't go together that way.
Q. Well, there is a dowel pin here, isn't
there? A. Yes.
Q. It can go together that way? A. Yes.
Q. Another step belongs in here? A. It
fits in one of the steps.
Q. Fits in when you put the other section
in there and lock it? A. That's right.
Q. But if only two sections were used,
there wouldn't be any step here at the top, would there? A. I don't know.
Q. Does not the third section fit into
these two holes? A. I don't recall.
Q. Did you ever fit it in? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. Well then, if you fitted it in, you do
recall that it fits in? A. No, sir, that is a long time ago.
Q. Will you measure that for Mr. Pope,
please, from the top round to the top of the ladder?
Mr. Wilentz: Just a minute, please.
Mr. Reilly: Is that the distance from the point
that Mr. Pope holds his hand to the first rung down?
The Witness: Yes.
Mr. Reilly: That is two feet four.
Mr. Wilentz: Is that all of that?
Mr. Reilly: That is all.
Re-Direct
Examination by Mr. Wilentz:
Q. Just take a look at this section,
please, No. 2 [504] on this Exhibit S‑32 for identification. Do you see it? A. Yes.
Q. When you had it together, you had it
this way, did you not? A. Yes, sir.
Q. That is, that distance which counsel has
measured as being—how many inches?
Mr. Reilly: Two feet four inches.
Q. That particular part was the part which
you had connecting between the first and second sections, is that not so? A. Yes,
sir.
Mr. Reilly: Now, may he tell us what he did and
where he put it.
The Court: Well, it is somewhat leading, perhaps
irregular in that respect. The Attorney General may reframe his question.
Q. Will you tell us how you had it then?
A. (Witness demonstrates by putting two sections of the ladder together on
the floor.)
Q. Now, as you have it here, and for the
purpose of helping the jury and the Court, if your Honor please, may I not ask
whether that portion which was just measured is the portion that you have
connecting one and two, is that it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Yes. And, when that is in that fashion,
is there any such distance as they have just attempted to show by measurement
between. rungs?
Mr. Reilly: Oh, I object to the form of the
question.
A. No.
[505] Mr. Reilly: I object to the form of the
question—just attempted to show—
The Court: Sir?
Mr. Reilly: His question that we just attempted
to show—we did show.
Mr. Wilentz: Well, that is exactly what counsel
did.
Mr. Reilly: I don't want the implication to give
to anybody or to the jury the impression we were trying to do something here
that wasn't proper.
The Court: Oh, no such implication as that. I
think the question is proper enough, Mr. Reilly.
Q. Now, will you take that measure that has
just been provided for and tell us the distance between these rungs as now
constructed, or reconstructed.
Mr. Wilentz: Have you got that measure? Well,
you can use the stool, if you want. I don't know what difference it makes.
Q. Measure all of them except those two
that are, by their very appearance, very close together. A. (The witness
starts to makes a measurement.)
Q. No, not that. Between the two rungs. A. (The
witness makes a measurement.)
Q. What distance do those two uppermost
rungs show as the ladder is now constructed? Now, just one minute. Give us the
distance between the top of the rung and the next rung. Not the far ends. A. 19
inches.
[506] Q. 19 inches. Now let us take the
next one. A. 19 inches.
Q. Take the next one. A. That is the
same, 19.
Q. All right. Keep right on until you are
through with the rungs. A. 18.
Q. The next one. A. 18. 18.
Q. All right, sir. And then the last one. A. 18.
Q. All right. Now, will you just take the
stand again. A. The witness resumes the stand.
Q. Now, as you reconstructed this ladder, sir,
the one section is narrower than the other? A. Yes.
Q. And fits in: is that it? A. Right.
Q. Now, with that sort of a construction,
which is the top and which is the bottom? A. This is the top (indicating).
Q. That is, the smaller section the top? A. Right.
Q. Being a fireman, I take it that you had
some experience with ladders? A. I have.
Q. What have you to say—no, I withdraw
that. Will you please measure the distance between the rungs on the ladder we
have had in here from the Lindbergh estate? A. Approximately 12 inches.
Q. Twelve inches. Now which is the standard
ladder, a ladder where the distance between the rungs is 12 inches or 18 or 19
inches? A. 12 inches standard.
Q. So that a ladder with rungs having a
distance of 18 or 19 inches is ostensibly a ladder for a man with a bigger
step, that is a taller man?
Mr. Reilly: I object to that as calling for a
conclusion, although he has qualified him, your Honor, as a fireman and a
ladder climber.
The Court: I think I will allow that question,
Mr. Reilly.
(Question repeated by the reporter.)
[507] Q. What is your answer, sir? A. Not
necessarily.
Q. Well, where the ladder,—the rungs are I2
inches apart—I withdraw that. Where the rungs are 19 inches apart, a person
that would be say a little shorter than myself might have difficulty in
stretching and climbing that sort of a ladder, wouldn't he? A. They would
have.
Q. They would have. So that the ladder is
built so that it is particularly adaptable, is it not, for taller men? A. It
is.
Q. Now, this ladder, when constructed with
dowel pins is a swinging sort of thing where it fits right in like a glove, is
that not so? A. It is, yes.
Q. And so that when put together it
occupies in length—what was the measurement you said, 6 feet 10 inches, isn't
that it? A. I think that is it, 6 feet 10.
Q. In this fashion (telescoping the three
sections of S‑32 for identification into each other.) just like that? A. Right.
Q. The three sections together like that,
you could carry it around, could you not? A. Yes, sir.
Q. A simple thing, is it not? A. Yes.
Q. All right, sir. Now, when you went up
this ladder putting the rung at the point where you said approximately near the
point where the marks were shown on the building, the side of the wall, and you
went in, and you came out, you told counsel that you put one hand on the window
sill and one hand some other place—I forget, it doesn't matter so much—was it
difficult to come out? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you use the two hands because you
had to? A. I think so.
Q. Could you have come out with a package? A. I
could.
Q. With any greater difficulty or with the
same ease? A. Well, I would have to lay the package down.
[508] Q. On what? A. On the window
sill.
Q. And then as you balance yourself, what
would you do? A. Pick it up.
Q. Could you close the window then? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. You are certain of that? A. Positive.
Q. Positive? A. Yes, sir.
Q. So that—and in coming down the ladder,
could you then come down the ladder, one hand coming down the rungs and the
other hand with a package? A. I could.
Q. Did you have any difficulty at all about
it? A. No, sir.
Q. And then if you had come down, would
there have been any difficulty, taking either the three sections together or
the two sections together, with the bundle in one hand and walking 70, feet? A. No.
Q. Now, take a look at these sections,
please, particularly the—will you come down, please, Officer, and put this
section away. A. (Witness puts one section against the wall.)
Q. Just put that down, please. A. (Two
sections of ladder are placed together on the floor.)
Q. The proper way, I take it, would be
around like this. Now, that is approximately the way.
Mr. Hauck: The other way.
Q. No. You see, I have never been a
fireman. Now, you have got the two sections in a position where the dowel,
where the rung is in, you would have to get it over a little further. No. That
is approximately it. And the dowel pins fit. I notice, Officer, that where this
ordinarily empty space is here, the impression here, that that fits with the
top rung of the first section? A. It does.
Q. It does. So that as it is constructed
there is no [509] vacancy there at all. I mean so far as that impression? A. None.
Q. No. Now will you take a look and see
whether or not this ladder isn't broken right here at the intersection, split? A. It
is.
Q. Split all the way down, isn't it? A. Yes.
Q. How about the other side? A. That
is split, too.
Q. Split, too? A. Yes.
Q. It is split on the other end? A. No.
Q. Or is it split on any of this part? Any
of this split at all? A. No.
Q. All right, sir. So that as the sections
are there together, right there at the intersection, the second section is
split, isn't it? A. Yes.
Q. I take it, officer, that where, since
you have been a fireman and know about ladders—will you take the stand,
please—you have seen these section ladders? A. I have.
Q. Various section ladders; and I take it
that when the sections are together and they are placed up against the
building, the weight is at the intersection, isn't it? A. That is true.
Q. I mean your entire support depends upon
that dowel pin and the top of that ladder? A. It does.
Q. Where it meets the bottom of the second
section? A. That is right.
Q. Isn't that so? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And the strength that that ladder can
carry depends upon the strength of the top and intersection, isn't that so?
Mr. Reilly: I object to that. I object to it,
sir.
The Court: Why do you. object?
Mr. Reilly: It is leading.
[510] The Court: Leading?
Mr. Reilly: He is testifying.
The Court: Well—
Mr. Reilly: And I don't think it is re-direct.
The Court: Oh, I think it is re-direct all
right. I am inclined to think the question is somewhat leading.
Mr. Wilentz: I will reframe it, sir.
Mr. Reilly: All the witness has to do is to say
yes.
Q. Is it a fact, officer, that some ladders
can carry more weight and some less? A. It is a fact.
Q. What is it that controls the amount of
weight that a ladder can carry? A. If it is an extension ladder it would
have to be properly supported in the center where the most weight is borne and
if it is a single ladder and long enough they use poles to take the weight and
slag off the center.
Q. Forgetting the single ladder and getting
back to the section ladder I suppose the type of material and everything has
something to do with it. A. Absolutely.
Q. But assuming various ladders having the
same kind of material, same size and everything forgetting that for the moment
what is it then, that decides in a section ladder, a two-section ladder what
carries the weight? A. Where it is held together at the section, where it
is joined.
Q. At the intersection, is that what you
mean? A. Yes, sir.
[511] Q. That is the top and the dowel pin,
I take it. A. Yes, sir.
Q. And I take it, or is it a fact that the
ladder can stand in most cases just a certain amount of weight and no more? A. That's
all.
Q. And when it is overtaxed, what would
happen to a ladder that was overtaxed, if you know? A. It usually breaks.
Q. Where would the break be most likely to
come? A. Where most of the weight was pressing.
Q. Where would that be? A. In the
center.
Q. In the center. You mean by that the
intersection? A. The intersection.
Q. Where is this ladder broken? A. In
the center.
Q. At the intersection? A. Yes, sir.
Mr. Wilentz: That is all. I thank you.
Re-Cross
Examination by Mr. Reilly:
Q. Had you talked to anybody during the
noon recess? A. Yes.
Q. Who? A. Oh, a dozen people.
Q. Anybody from the Attorney General's
office? A. Yes.
Q. About the ladder? A. No.
Q. About the weather, I suppose? A. No.
Q. Well, now, let's see about this ladder.
You do not know who cracked it, do you? A. From my own knowledge I do not
know.
Q. That is what I am talking about, your
own knowledge. You did not see it cracked? A. No.
Q. You never went up this ladder and went
into the window, did you? A. No, sir.
Q. You never went out the window with a
bundle in your arm and swung on to this ladder, S‑32? A. No.
[512] Q. You never picked the ladder up in
your arm and walked away from the house and dumped it 75 feet away? A. No.
Q. You are only speculating on what might
happen if you did it? A. That is right.
Q. Unfortunately, you did not do it,
although you were there to investigate? A. No, sir.
By Mr. Wilentz:
Q. You didn't take the Lindbergh child out
of that window, did you? A. No.
Q. No. That is all.
Mr. Wilentz: That is all.
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