STATE
vs. HAUPTMANN
January
8, 1935
[444]
AMANDUS HOCHMUTH, sworn as a witness
on behalf of the State:
Direct Examination by Mr. Wilentz: Q. Mr. Hochmuth, how old are you,
sir? A. I am in my eighty-seventh year.
Q.
Eighty-seven? A. Yes.
Q.
And how long have you been a resident of Hunterdon County? A. About
ten—well, about ten years.
Q.
Where were you born? A. I am here off and on summertimes—I generally go to
New York-
Q.
Did you serve in the Prussian Army during—A. Yes, sir.
Mr.
Reilly: Oh, I object to it.
The
Court: I don’t see that it makes much difference.
Mr.
Wilentz: No, I am satisfied, if counsel is going to be limited similarly with
his witnesses.
[445]
Q. On the 1st day of March, 1932, where were you residing? A. I was
standing on the porch—
Q.
Where were you living then? A. The corner of what they call the Mercer
County Highway and the road that goes up to Mr. Lindbergh’s place.
Q.
In other words, that is at the main highway intersection with the lane that
runs up to the Lindbergh place? A. Exactly.
Q.
And is that where you were living? A. Yes.
Q.
And were you outside that day? A. Yes, sir.
Q.
Did you see a car come along? A. Yes.
Mr.
Reilly: Now, please don’t lead him.
Mr.
Wilentz: Yes, I think you are right, sir.
Q.
Tell us about your experience that morning. A. Well, I saw a car coming
around the corner, pretty good speed, and I expected it to turn over on the
ditch. And as the car was about 25—I should judge 25 feet away from me, the man
in there looked out of the window like this.
Q.
Out of the window of the car you mean? A. Yes, and he glared at me as if
he saw a ghost.
Mr.
Reilly: I move to strike that out as a conclusion.
Mr.
Wilentz: I don’t know—
The
Court: What is that answer?
The
Reporter: His answer was: “Yes, and he glared at me as if he saw a ghost.”
The
Court: What is the objection?
[446]
Mr. Reilly: It is a conclusion. However, I will withdraw it for the present.
By
Mr. Wilentz: Q. What time of the day was that? A. It was in the forenoon.
Q.
And the man that you saw looking out of that automobile glaring at you in the
manner that you say, is he in this room? A. Yes.
Q.
Where is he? A. Alongside of the trooper there.
Q.
Alongside of the trooper? A. Yes (pointing his finger).
(At
this point the lights in the courtroom went out.)
Mr.
Wilentz: Is there any reason for extinguishing of the lights?
By
Mr. Wilentz: Q. Well, at any rate, would you mind stepping down, please, and
showing us?
Mr.
Reilly: I object to that until he first points out the man from where he sits.
Mr.
Wilentz: He did that.
Mr.
Reilly: No, he did not. He said a man sitting next to the trooper.
By
Mr. Wilentz: Q. Which side of the trooper? A. The man [447] sitting
between the trooper and the other man with the white shirt on.
Q.
The other man with what on? A. The man with the white shirt.
Mr.
Wilentz: Now may the gentleman come down without objection?
The
Court: I think so.
(The
witness came down from the stand and advanced in the direction where the
defendant Hauptmann was sitting.)
Mr.
Wilentz: Will you please put your hand on his shoulder?
The
Witness: Right there (touching the defendant with his hand).
Mr.
Wilentz: May we have on the record, “Indicating Bruno Richard Hauptmann”?
By
Mr. Wilentz: Q. You were telling us a minute ago about the car coming around
the corner. Did it come around your corner? A. It couldn’t have come any
other way but from Hopewell.
Mr.
Reilly: I move to strike that out.
Mr.
Wilentz: That is all right; we consent to it.
Q.
Along what road did it come, sir? A. It can’t come any other way.
Q.
I know, but you will have to tell us what road [448] it did come, not how it
cannot come. A. I can’t state exactly.
Q.
I mean on what highway was it as it turned that corner? A. Mercer County
Highway.
Q.
Mercer County Highway, and coming from the direction of—what town was the
nearest town? A. Hopewell.
Q.
Hopewell. And did it make the turn, as you said, into the lane? A. Yes.
Q.
And when it made the turn into the lane, did it proceed or did it stop? A. It
stopped as it got in the ditch.
Q.
Did it get into the ditch? A. Not yet; but it stopped there, and he pulled
the ladder over to him.
Q.
You say that he stopped as he got into the ditch in making the turn? A. Into
the ditch.
Q.
How long did it—did the car stop at all for any period of time? A. Well, I
should say about quarter of a minute, or something like that.
Q.
A quarter of a minute? A. Yes.
Q.
Yes, sir. All right, sir. Now, you said just now something about a ladder: Was
there a ladder in the car? A. I saw something, some of the ladder in it.
Q.
Something?
Mr.
Reilly: What is the answer?
(Last
answer read by the reporter: “I saw something, some of the ladder in it.”)
Mr.
Reilly: I move to strike it out as calling for a conclusion.
[449]
Q. You saw—what did you say you saw? A. I saw—
The
Court: Just a moment.
Mr.
Wilentz: Oh, pardon me, please.
The
Court: Won’t you repeat the question and answer?
(Question
and answer read as follows: “Q. Yes, sir. All right, sir. Now, you said just
now something about a ladder: was there a ladder in the car? A. I saw
something, some of the ladder in it.”)
The
Court: I shall have to decline to strike that out, Mr. Reilly.
Mr.
Reilly: May I have an exception.
The
Court: You may have your exception.
(Exception
allowed and the same is signed and sealed accordingly.)
(s.
S.) THOMAS W. TRENCHARD, Judge.
The
Court: I wonder, if counsel think it is important to have these lights on
again, if they can be put on again.
Court
Crier Hann: I have sent for the electric light man.
The
Court: Very well, very well. They will be put on as soon as they can.
[450]
Court Crier Hann: Yes, sir.
The
Court: Proceed, Mr. Attorney General.
Q.
Now where do you spend your— I will withdraw that. I think you said you live in
this county about ten years. A. Yes, sir; lived in Skillman first, and my
son-in-law lived there.
Q.
You lived in Skillman with your son-in-law first? A. Yes.
Q.
I see. And you spend some time in New York, do you, too? A. Yes.
Q.
With your daughter? A. My elder daughter, yes.
Q.
And who lives here at this corner that you talk of, this house here, in
Hopewell? A. My daughter.
Q.
Your daughter? A. And my son-in-law.
Q.
Your son-in-law and daughter. A. Yes.
Q.
Thank you, sir. That is all. Oh. You remember the color of the car? Yes, I
omitted that. A. Yes. A dirty green.
Q.
A dirty green? A. (The witness nods affirmatively.)
Q.
Mr. Wilentz: I am very much obliged to you, sir, and that is all we have; but
you will please wait a moment until counsel for the defense asks you a few
questions.
Cross-Examination by Mr. Reilly: Q. When did you first tell this
story to anybody? A. Never spoke to anybody about it.
Q.
Before you took the witness stand you never told a soul about what you were
going to testify to today, is that correct? A. That is correct.
Q.
You give me your word on your oath that that [451] is correct? A. Certainly
I do.
Q.
Did you stand at that door, the left hand door of this court room yesterday? A. Yes.
Q.
At noon recess, at a quarter of two, with a State Trooper? A. Yes.
Q.
Alongside of him? A. I guess so.
Q.
Don’t you know? A. Yes, I think it was.
Q.
And didn’t the State Trooper bring you to the left door and point Bruno Richard
Hauptmann out to you as he sat in his seat? A. No, sir.
Q.
And weren’t you then taken back up the stairs to the Grand Jury room? A. No.
Q.
What did they bring you to that door for yesterday at a quarter of two? A. I
don’t think —
Q.
Look at me, please. What did they bring you to that door for? A. Oh, I
went to the toilet.
Q.
No. They brought you down—
Mr.
Wilentz: Just a minute now. I object to the “No,” and the badgering of the
witness. No necessity to shout at him.
Mr.
Reilly: I am not badgering the witness.
Mr.
Wilentz: No, but the witness give an answer—the point I make—
The
Court: Yes. The witness ought to be allowed to answer. Mr. Reilly understands
that. Now you may proceed.
Q.
The toilet in that room is to the rear of the room: you know that, don’t you? A. Yes.
Q.
The toilet is nowhere near this door, here, is it?
Mr.
Wilentz: If your Honor please—
[452]
A. I don’t see what you are aiming at.
Q.
I am aiming at this: Do you remember yesterday at a quarter of two being
brought down the staircase of this room in here, the library, by a State
Trooper? A. Yes.
Q.
Do you remember being brought to this doorway here, and facing out into the
courtroom: do you remember that? A. Yes.
Q.
Do you remember Bruno Richard Hauptmann sitting over here with the State
Troopers at that time? A. Yes.
Q.
Do you remember the State Trooper pointing Hauptmann out to you yesterday?
Mr.
Wilentz: I object to that.
A. No,
sir.
Mr.
Wilentz: I withdraw the objection. He has answered it.
The
Court: Answer the question.
Mr.
Wilentz: He has answered.
The
Court: What is the answer?
(Answer
read by the reporter.)
Q.
What did they bring you to the door for?
Mr.
Wilentz: Well, I object to that, if your Honor pleases.
The
Court: He may state, if he knows.
A. For
what purpose? I don’t know.
[453]
Q. You don’t know? A. I don’t remember—I went out—the officer took me out
to the toilet once.
Q.
Well, of course, the toilet is not in that doorway. A. I know that.
Mr.
Wilentz: Well, it is right near there, if your Honor please. I don’t see the
point of badgering the witness about that, when counsel knows it is right
there.
Mr.
Reilly: I am not badgering the witness and I am not going to be accused of
badgering the witness.
The
Court: No, I do not understand there is any badgering here. There is a point of
inquiry as to where the toilet is. I think that is proper.
Q.
You were here all day yesterday. Is that correct? A. Yes.
Q.
Is that correct, sir? A. Yes, sir.
Q.
And you were kept up in the Grand Jury room, or a room up a pair of stairs: is
that correct? A. I don’t know whether it is the jury room.
Q.
You were not in this courtroom? A. I was here.
Q.
In the courtroom? A. Yes. If you will point out the jury room I will
answer. Is that the room where I left my coat?
Q.
Is that the room where you left your coat? A. All right. Then I know where
the jury room is.
Q.
The room upstairs. Now, where were you sitting in the courtroom yesterday? A. Right
over there, back of that lady with the blue dress on.
Q.
All morning? A. Yes.
[454]
Q. Who brought you here? A. Brought here by a Trooper.
Q.
Who brought you home? A. A Trooper.
Q.
Was yesterday the first day you were in court? A. Yes.
Q.
Did you tell the Trooper what you were going to say on the witness stand? A. No.
Q.
You didn’t tell anybody. You say you are how old? A. I am in my
eighty-seventh year.
Q.
You say you are how old? A. I am in my eighty-seventh year.
Q.
What was your business—I suppose you are retired now, is that correct? A. Yes.
Q.
What was your business? A. Well, the last five years I was a special in
Loew’s Theatre in 116th Street.
Q.
Special officer? A. Yes.
Q.
Before that, what did you do? A. I was employed in a bank in New York.
Q.
Well now, this special officer business—were you employed by any detective
agency? A. No.
Q.
Did you have a badge as a special officer? A. I didn’t take it.
Q.
Did you have a badge? A. I didn’t want it.
Q.
I didn’t ask you whether you wanted it or whether you took it. Did you have it?
A. No.
Q.
Where were you, up in the gallery to keep order? A. Balconies.
Q.
Balcony. And, what was your business before you went into the bank? A. The
what?
Q.
What was your business before you became a banker? A. I came in that bank
in 1876.
Q.
What did you do in the bank? A. I was called a porter.
Q.
A porter? A. Getting the books out, in the daytime I had the floor.
Q.
Your health is rather poor, isn’t it? A. My health?
[455]
Q. Yes. A. It don’t seem like it.
Q.
Well, I notice that you are shaky. A. I have had a good deal of
rheumatism.
Q.
Did you ever have a stroke? A. No.
Q.
Just rheumatism. You say you are shaking from rheumatism, and you are
eighty-seven years of age. A. Yes.
Q.
Are you near-sighted or far-sighted? A. My eyes are all right.
Q.
I didn’t ask you that, mister. You are wearing glasses.
Mr.
Wilentz: He has answered it. He asked if he was near or far-sighted.
The
Court: He says his eyes are all right.
Q.
Why do you wear the glasses, to see better? A. At a distance, yes. For
reading, I read without glasses.
Q.
You say you were living in March or February on somebody’s farm, is that
correct? A. Yes.
Q.
Where? A. Hopewell.
Q.
Hopewell, is that right? A. Yes.
Q.
Whose farm? A. Henry Plum.
Q.
Is he related to you? A. Huh?
Q.
Is he related to you? A. He is a son-in-law of mine.
Q.
When did you go to live there that year? A. I went, I lived there first
with him and Skillman for a while. That is after I left the bank.
Q.
When did you come to live at this particular corner you are telling us about? A. Oh,
that is about five years.
Q.
Five years. I want to know what month? A. What month?
Q.
Of that year, you came to live there. Had you been living there for a year or
two before that? [456] A. I had been in New York in the summer time,
celebrated my birthday there, the 25th of July, and then I left and came out
here.
Q.
When did you come out here? A. To stay?
Q.
August, September, October or when? A. July.
Q.
July? A. After my birthday.
Q.
And you stayed on continuously, is that correct? A. True, yes.
Q.
And how many were in the household? A. Themselves, myself and my daughter.
Q.
And, of course, you didn’t do any work, did you? A. Oh, yes; we had two
horses, and I attended to those, chickens and ducks, whatever we had.
Q.
Did you attend to the horses and to the 20 chickens? A. Yes.
Q.
In the mornings? A. Yes.
Q.
And where were the horses and chickens kept? In the barn? A. Yes.
Q.
Back of the house? A. Yes.
Q.
Now what day of the week was this you say you saw the dirty green car? A. That
was on the 1st of March.
Q.
What day of the week? A. Well, I think it was Tuesday.
Q.
And— A. I am not quite—
Q.
And what time did you get up that morning? A. Oh, I am up at six o’clock.
Q.
And what time do you say you saw the dirty green car? A. Well, it was
pretty late, towards noon.
Q.
Noon on March the 1st? A. Yes.
Q.
Is that so? A. It was a clear day.
Q.
A clear day. Was it a cold day? A. Well, yes.
Q.
How long had you been out of this front gate or at the road? A. Beg
pardon?
[457]
Q. How long had you been out at this spot that you say you saw this green car? A. Why,
I had just come out.
Q.
How far was it away from your house? A. Well, I should judge it is
about—what do you mean, the car?
Q.
No, you. The spot that you were standing. A. How far I was from where?
Q.
Your house. A. Oh, I was right on the porch.
Q.
You were on the porch? A. Yes.
Q.
And you are sure you were on the porch? A. Yes.
Q.
Correct. Now how far does the house set back from the road? A. About, I should
judge, about five feet.
Q.
Five feet? A. The house stands back.
Q.
The house stands back from the road? A. Yes.
Q.
Now, this is some highway, isn’t it? A. Yes.
Q.
What is the name of the highway? A. Well, it is a road up to Lindy’s. I
call it Lindy’s Road.
Q.
Is it a dirt road? A. No, it is not a dirt road.
Q.
Is it a State macadam road? A. No, a stone road.
Q.
A stone road? A. Yes.
Q.
And is there a fence between the house and the road? A. There is a hedge.
Q.
A hedge? A. Yes.
Q.
And, is the porch right up against the hedge or doesn’t the house set back? A. The
house is back from the—
Q.
The house sets back from the hedge? A. Yes.
Q.
You know that? A. Yes, sir.
Q.
How many feet twenty, or twenty-five feet back from the hedge, doesn’t it? A. I
would say five feet.
Q.
Isn’t there any lawn between the house and the hedge? A. That is about
five feet wide.
[458]
Q. Did you ever measure it? A. No.
Q.
There is a lawn between your porch and the hedge, is that correct? A. Yes,
there is quite a—
Q.
And, you say there is only five feet between the porch— A. It isn’t as
wide as this is (referring to space between judge’s bench and jury box.)
Q.
It isn’t as wide as this? A. No.
Q.
How big is the porch? A. Oh, the porch is about three feet square.
Q.
Three feet square? Room for any chairs? A. Well, if you want to.
Q.
Is it a big house or a small house? A. It is a one-story house.
Q.
One-story house? A. Two stories.
Q.
Two stories? A. One and a story above.
Q.
Yes, parlor floor and bedroom? A. That is it.
Q.
Right? A. Yes.
Q.
Is it a cottage effect? A. What?
Q.
Is it a wooden house? A. Yes, frame house.
Q.
Frame house. Now, how long does this hedge run along in front of the house? A. All
the way around.
Q.
All the way around. What is the frontage of the house, of the property? A. The
frontage is about, I should judge, about eighteen feet.
Q.
Eighteen feet, and how high was the hedge on 30 that particular day? A. Well—
Q.
Was it as high as this railing here, or higher? A. Well, about three feet
high.
Q.
It is much higher, isn’t it? A. About three feet high.
Q.
About three feet high? A. That is about two feet, not quite.
Q.
Much higher, is it not? A. About three feet high.
Q.
About three feet high? A. About three feet high.
[459]
Q. Just what portion of the porch were you on? A. Facing the road going up
to Lindbergh’s.
Q.
Had you come out the front door of the house? A. The back door. This is
the back porch.
Q.
This is the back porch. This is the kitchen porch, is it? A. Yes.
Q.
And you had come out there and you were just standing there, is that right? A. Yes.
Q.
You did not expect anything to go past there, did you? A. No.
Q.
Your mind was not on the road at all? A. No.
Q.
You were not interested in anything, is that correct? A. Yes.
Q.
This is some day in 1932, right? A. Yes.
Q.
And all of a sudden a car passes very fast? A. Coming this way.
Q.
I don’t care which way it was coming, it was going fast? A. Yes, pretty
good speed.
Q.
Pretty good speed. Forty or fifty miles an hour? A. Yes.
Q.
Faster than that? A. No, I don’t think so.
Q.
Forty or fifty miles an hour? A. About forty miles an hour.
Q.
And there was a turn in the road there? A. You see, I have seen many a one
going into that ditch, and I expected to see him going over, but the car
stopped.
Q.
The car slowed down? A. It stopped.
Q.
Stopped. It came to a dead stop? A. Yes.
Q.
And then started up again? A. Yes.
Q.
Is that right? A. Yes.
Q.
And the man that you saw, was he driving? A. Yes.
Q.
And there were windows in the car? A. Yes.
Q.
Was it a cold day? A. Well, I can’t exactly state.
Q.
What month was it? A. March. You know [460] the weather we have in March.
Q.
How many cars had you seen go in the ditch before that? A. I saw seven go
in in one week.
Q.
Seven? A. Yes, before it was fixed. It is fixed now.
Q.
When did you last see a car go in the ditch before this particular day? A. I
have seen some go pretty near close up to it, but not in.
Q.
When before this day did you last see a car either go in the ditch or nearly go
in the ditch? A. What do you mean; this car which I saw?
Q.
When before that day did you see one almost go in the ditch? A. Well, I
saw the Public Service man go in there quite some time before that.
Q.
I ask you when before, if you can remember, and if you can’t remember, tell me—
Mr.
Wilentz: Just a minute. He says quite some time before that he saw the Public
Service car go in there. That was his answer.
Mr.
Reilly: That did not answer my question.
Q.
When before this day, if you can remember—or can you remember? A. I can’t
remember.
Q.
Now, when was it you say you think you saw or you did see the Public Service
car almost go in the ditch? A. I helped him with chains to pull him out
again.
Q.
What date? A. State?
Q.
What date? A. I don’t remember; I don’t pay any attention to those things,
except they might drop in and I run over.
Q.
This dirty green car did not drop over? A. No.
Q.
It didn’t go in the ditch? A. It went slanting.
Q.
It did not go in the ditch? A. No.
[461]
Q. It did not ask you for any assistance, did it? A. No.
Q.
It slowed up, stopped, started up again, and drove off: is that correct? A. Yes.
Q.
How was the man dressed, if you can remember? A. Well, I think he had a
dark shirt on.
Q.
You think he had a dark shirt on? A. You see all I took in was the face
and these glaring eyes.
Q.
Give me this again. What was it? A. All I took in was his red face and the
glaring eyes.
Q.
I see. He had a red face? A. Yes.
Q.
Like mine? A. A little more red.
Q.
A little more red than me? A. Oh, yes.
Q.
And he had very piercing eyes, did he? A. Yes.
Q.
Well, you as a bank man know that you have seen many people in your bank with
piercing eyes, right. A. Yes.
Q.
And you have seen many people with red faces, is that right? A. Yes.
Q.
Of course you told nobody about this? A. No.
Q.
Not even your son-in-law? A. No.
Q.
Your daughter? A. No.
Q.
Nobody, correct? A. Correct.
Q.
So that we have your solemn word before this jury that before you took this
stand—am I right? A. Correct.
Q.
Nobody in the world knew what you were going to say, is that so? A. Exactly.
Q.
That’s all—pardon me, it isn’t all. Were you taken into the jail some time ago
by a State trooper? A. Yes.
Q.
When? A. Oh, it is several days ago.
Q.
You saw the defendant, Hauptmann, there, didn’t you? A. I saw a figure in
there, but I couldn’t see him.
Q.
Didn’t they have you in there thirty minutes? [462] A. Maybe so.
Q.
What? A. Yes.
Q.
There was nobody there but the defendant, was there? A. That’s it and two
troopers.
Q.
And they were in uniform? A. Yes.
Q.
You knew they were troopers, because they wore— A. No, one wasn’t in
uniform.
Q.
What did he have on, trooper’s pants, didn’t he? A. I cannot exactly—
Q.
You cannot remember only a few days ago that he had on his trooper’s pants? A. A
few days ago, it is longer than that.
Q.
A month ago? A. Yes.
Q.
You can’t remember whether he had on his trooper’s pants? A. I think he did.
Q.
You remember tHat he bad his cartridge belt on? A. No, I didn’t look.
Q.
And do you remember that he was in his shirt sleeves? A. Oh, yes.
Q.
Yes. And he wore a gray shirt, didn’t he? A. (Witness nods affirmatively.)
Q.
The second trooper. A. Which one do you mean, the one outside?
Q.
No, in the jail. A. In the cage?
Q.
When they took you to see the defendant. A. In the cage?
Q.
Yes. A. Yes, he was in his shirt sleeves.
Q.
Yes. A. And I think—
Q.
Trooper’s pants. A. Trooper’s pants.
Q.
With a nice— A. Yes.
Q.
—Yellow stripe, is that right? A. Yes.
Re-direct Examination by Mr.
Wilentz: Q. You
say you didn’t talk to anybody. I suppose you mean you talked to nobody—
Mr.
Reilly: I object to what he supposes.
[463]
Mr. Wilentz: Wait until I ask the question.
Mr.
Reilly: I object to it if it is going to be leading. I object to it now.
The
Court: Let the objection be made after the question is put, and the witness
will refrain from answering until after I have ruled. Now, Mr. Attorney
General.
Q.
You spoke to me this morning, didn’t you, Mr. Hochmuth? A. Yes, sir.
Q.
Just a few minutes before you got on the stand. A. Yes.
Q.
And I asked you whether or not—
Mr.
Reilly: I object to what he asked him.
Mr.
Wilentz: Well, I have asked him about talking to people.
Mr.
Reilly: All right, he is your witness. He said he never talked to a soul in the
world.
Mr.
Wilentz: How many objections do you have to make at a time, if your Honor
please, I am talking to counsel standing up and counsel sitting down.
The
Court: Now, let us understand precisely what question the Attorney General
wants to put and then I will rule upon it.
(Reporter
repeated last two questions and answers: “You spoke to me this morning, didn’t
you, Mr. Hochmuth? Answer: Yes, sir. Question: Just a few minutes before you [464]
got on the stand? Answer: Yes. Question: And I asked you whether or not—”)
Mr.
Reilly: I object to what he asked.
Mr.
Wilentz: I will withdraw it, it isn’t finished, I will withdraw it and ask
another question.
Q.
And, you spoke, you spoke to officers, troopers, whatever it is?
Mr.
Reilly: I object to this, he said he didn’t speak to anybody.
Mr.
Wilentz: Well, if your Honor please, that is just a catch expression, if your
Honor please.
Mr.
Reilly: It isn’t a catch expression, it is serious cross examination.
Mr.
Wilentz: I have no right to cross examine him, but I have a right to clear up
the situation so the jury is not misled.
The
Court: Yes, I think the Attorney General is entitled within a reasonable limit
to ascertain whether or not the witness meant precisely what he said.
Mr.
Reilly: I still say he shouldn’t do it in leading questions.
The
Court: No, he ought not.
Mr.
Reilly: He certifies to the truth of the witness.
[465]
The Court: No, he ought not to put leading questions, the witness is his
witness.
Mr.
Reilly: His witness, he certifies to the truth and accuracy, we bring out
certain things in the cross examination. Now he tries to explain it.
The
Court: I think the Attorney General is justified in the asking of
unobjectionable questions that you ascertain whether or not the witness meant
precisely what he said.
Mr.
Wilentz: All right, sir.
Q.
So that you, as I understand it, you said you spoke to me this morning? A. Yes.
Q.
And, did you speak to any officers about this case recently? A. No.
Q.
Well, I mean— A. Not—
Mr.
Reilly: Now, I object, that is his answer.
Mr.
Wilentz: Well, now, certainly it is his answer.
A. You
know, you can’t prevent from speaking to anybody in the case.
Q.
You can’t what, what is the answer?
Mr.
Reilly: I move that be stricken out as not responsive.
Mr.
Wilentz: Let’s hear it now.
Mr.
Reilly: Wait a minute. A motion is before the Court.
[466]
The Court: I have not heard it.
Mr.
Reilly: All right. The stenographer will repeat it. I can’t combat the Attorney
General on the voluntary statements of this witness.
(Reporter
repeats last answer: “You know you can’t prevent from speaking to anybody that
is in the case.”)
Q.
What do you mean by that, sir? A. Why, if one will speak to you and the
other speak to you, one say, “How do you do,” and, “How do you feel?” and this
way, so you can’t help it.
Q.
Did any of the officers speak to you about the case? A. Well, well, I tell
you, after I seen him—
Mr.
Reilly: I object to this.
A. (Continuing.)
—I said “That is him.”
Mr.
Reilly: I object to it.
The
Court: Well, the question is, “Did any of the officers speak to you about the
case?” I think the witness is entitled to answer that question.
Mr.
Reilly: Yes or No.
The
Court: How is that?
Mr.
Reilly: Answer it Yes or No.
The
Court: Well, he—
Mr.
Wilentz: He has already answered it.
[467]
The Court: What was his answer.
(Reporter
repeats last answer: “Well, well, I tell you, after I seen him I said ‘That is
him.’”)
Q.
And, by “him” who do you refer to? A. Hauptmann.
Mr.
Wilentz: All right, sir. That is all.
Cross-Examination by Mr. Reilly: Q. Who gave you the name Hauptmann?
A. I saw the name in the paper.
Q.
Yes. Now, have you ever been in any institution? A. What do you mean?
Q.
Hospital? A. Hospital. I was employed in a hospital once.
Q.
Where? A. Poughkeepsie.
Q.
Whereabouts in Poughkeepsie? A. Hudson River State Hospital.
Q.
The what? A. Hudson River State Hospital.
Q.
When were you employed there? A. I was employed as a kitchen boy.
Q.
How long ago? A. Oh, I think that was in ‘73, ‘74-1874.
Q.
Ever been back there since? A. What?
Q.
Have you ever been back there since. A. Yes; my wife is buried there, and
three children.
Q.
Have you ever been back to that institution since? A. I went there one
summer. My son took me up, showed me the change that had been made since I was
there.
Q.
Did you ever stay there? Did you ever stay there? A. No.
Q.
Were you ever in any other institution as an employee or as an inmate? A. No.
[468]
Q. Or any hospital? A. No.
Q.
Sure about it? A. Yes.
Q.
So that you got the name Hauptmann from the newspapers? A. Yes.
Q.
How long ago? A. When it came in the papers.
Q.
Why, that’s months ago. A. Yes.
Q.
And you saw his photograph in the paper, didn’t you? A. Yes.
Q.
Day after day and day after day; is that right? A. No, when the first
papers came out, I saw that face.
Q.
You saw the photograph? A. I saw—
Q.
Now, just answer my questions.
Mr.
Wilentz: Just let him answer it, please.
Mr.
Reilly: I submit I can get an answer, I think, yes or no. I don’t want a long
speech from the witness.
Mr.
Wilentz: Counsel may be right about it, but I think the procedure, may I
suggest it very respectfully, is to let the witness finish his answer; if it is
not responsive he can move to strike it out.
Mr.
Reilly: Yes, but the damage is done.
The
Court: Well, I will undertake to correct the damage, if you desire me to.
Mr.
Reilly: All right.
The
Court: But I do think the witness is entitled to finish his answer.
Q.
Am I correct in saying that you saw Hauptmann’s [469] picture in the newspaper?
Is that correct? A. When the first paper came out.
Q.
Yes. A. After his arrest.
Q.
How long ago was that? A. Oh, I don’t remember.
Q.
You don’t remember that day, do you? A. That is when he was arrested.
Q.
You don’t remember that date, do you? A. No.
Q.
Now, can you remember the second time you saw his picture, what date? A. Oh,
in every newspaper.
Q.
Can you remember the date that you were in the jail? A. That must have
been—
Q.
Not what it must have been—can you? A. No, not exactly.
Q.
That was within the last couple of months you were in the jail? A. Huh?
Q.
You were in the jail in the last couple of months? A. Yes, I think it was.
Q.
You think it was? A. About a month ago or something like that.
Q.
What day of the week were you in the jail? A. I think it was on a Sunday.
Q.
You are not sure? A. No.
Q.
You are not sure about the date? A. No.
Q.
And that only happened a month ago, is that right? A. It is not quite a
month ago, I don’t think.
Q.
Is that right? A. Yes.
Mr.
Reilly: That is all.
Mr.
Wilentz: That is all. Thank you very much.
Mr.
Reilly: Your Honor, could we have five minutes to air out here?
[470]
The Court: It has been suggested by the jury and counsel that we ought to take
a five minutes’ recess and that will be done. The jury will retire.
(The
jury retired at 11:300 a. m.)
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