STATE
vs. HAUPTMANN
January
8, 1935
[432]
NUNCIO DE GAETANO, sworn as a
witness for the State:
Direct
Examination by Mr.
Wilentz:
Q. How long have you been connected
with the State Police, officer? A. Since March 15th, 1929; almost six
years.
Q. Where did you reside prior to
your connection with the State Police ? A. In Newark, New Jersey.
Q. And on the 1st day of March,
1932, you were affiliated with the Department? A. Yes, sir.
Q. In what capacity? A. As a
Trooper.
Q. Where were you stationed? A. In
Morristown.
Q. Were you assigned to the
Lindbergh home some time about the time of the crime ? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What day was it that you came
down? A. March 1st, 1932.
Q. What time? A. At about 11:15,
approximately.
Q. Did you get there before Kelly,
the gentleman who was just on the stand? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And who did you meet when you
got there? A. Colonel Lindbergh and Trooper Wolf.
Q. Did you go up to the nursery? A. Yes,
sir.
[433] Q. What did you see when you
got there? What did you observe, rather? A. The envelope on the sill,
suitcase on top of the chest directly underneath the window.
Q. What window was that? A. That
was on the southeast corner of the room. Three blotches of dirt, that is, of
yellow clay I would call it. One was large, which was in the center of the
room, approximately the width of my hand. Of course it was rather blurred.
Q. Your hand is quite large, is it
not? A. Well, I would say about, I would say approximately four inches by
three or four inches, something like that. Then there was a smaller blotch of
dirt that was on the bare floor between the chest and the rug, directly
underneath and alongside the chest and the suitcase. Then on the suitcase at
the edge of the suitcase was a smeared blotch of dirt of the same color.
Q. Now, do you remember the, do you
remember the table in the center of the room? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do you remember the position of
that table with reference to the position of the southeast window and the
position of the crib? A. Why, as I recall that, the crib was up against
the west wall of the nursery and in between the south and the north wall and
directly opposite the crib was the fire place and in between the fire place and
the crib was this table, a small table.
Q. And this southeast window, I
suppose, was to, what direction was it, to the side or right in line? A. To
the side.
Q. In other words, what I want to
know is if a person came through that window, that southeast window and was to
approach the crib, would the table be in the direct path of it? A. No,
sir.
Q. It would not ? A. No, sir.
[434] Q. That is, you could walk
from the table to the crib without having the table interfere with your
progress? A. Correct.
Q. All right, sir; now, you saw
those things in that room, as I understand it. What next, did you do, sir? A. I
went downstairs in the yard and investigated in the vicinity underneath the
window, the nursery window.
Q. Pardon me—would you be able to
tell that suitcase—I didn't know it was here—would you be able to tell the
suitcase, if you saw it now? (Exhibiting suitcase to the witness.) A. I
wouldn't say —it looks like it.
Mr. Wilentz: Well, I will mark it
for identification for the time being.
Q. The suitcase I am showing you
now looks like the suitcase that was in the room and I am referring to? A. Yes,
sir.
Mr. Wilentz: I will offer it for
identification.
The Reporter: (S‑39) for
identification.
(Suitcase was marked S‑39 for
identifica tion.)
Q. And S‑39 for identification is
the suitcase that you are referring to that was near this, adjoining, rather,
this southeast window sill? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Over, located on some other
object? A. I would call it a chest.
Q. A chest or a trunk, I suppose? A. Yes,
sir. Q. All right. Now you may come back, if you will, please, and tell us
about coming downstairs. A. I went downstairs and there was a boardwalk [435]
there, walked along this boardwalk, and the first thing that I observed was a
footprint. The next thing that I observed was an indentation that—I couldn't
exactly say it was a footprint, but it was an indentation of some kind. This
particular indentation had ridges on the inside of it. The next thing I
observed was two holes or two indentations. They were longer than they were
wide, almost up against this particular boardwalk. Then the next thing I
noticed was a lady's footprint almost—between the house and this boardwalk,
what I would call the entrance to the porch. While I was investigating that I
was informed by Chief—
Mr. Reilly: I object to that.
Q. Yes, don't tell us what you were
informed, please, officer. Just tell us what you saw. A. Well, that is
what I saw.
Q. I see. Unless there is something
else you saw. A. I then saw the ladder approximately 65 to 70 feet away,
that is east of the wall, the house.
Q. Did you see the ladder that
night? A. Yes, sir.
Q. I show you S‑32 for
identification and ask you whether that is the ladder with the exception of
these various clips and little marks there, substantially is that the same
ladder? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were you there when Trooper
Kelly put any marks on it? A. No, sir.
Q. You were not. All right. After
seeing the ladder on the ground, did you see it in the house? A. No, sir.
Q. You did not. Now what about this
footprint you talk about; did you measure it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did it measure? A. It
measured 12 ½ inches approximately,
between 12 and 12 ½ inches.
[436] Q. You mean in length? A. In
length, and approximately four to four and one-quarter inches in width.
Q. What about this ridge that you
talk about; you saw another impression you said that indicated to you some
ridges ? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Will you, to the best of your
ability tell us something about those ridges and that impression? A. I
have seen ridges of that kind made by either a heavy woolen stocking or a
sweater.
Mr. Reilly: I object to this, his
opinion.
The Court: Well, be had better for
the present be confined to describing just what he saw.
Mr. Wilentz: That is what I want.
Q. Can you describe the ridge any
more than you can by just saying they were ridges? A. This particular
indentation was deeper in one end than it was at the other. The part where it
was deep was somewhat narrower than where it was uphill and then the inside of
this indentation was ridges, about all I can say was ridges.
Q. All right. Now let me see, maybe
I can help you. I suppose you recall seeing a gray checked suit with blocks of
checks? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Would you call those ridges if
you saw an impression of that on the ground?
Mr. Reilly: I object.
A. No, sir.
Q. You would not?
Mr. Reilly: I object. There is no
testimony that he ever saw such an impression.
[437] Mr. Wilentz: I withdraw it,
sir. You may never have seen a gray check suit.
Mr. Reilly: I have, but never on
the ground.
Q. Let me ask you this, Officer.
You said ridges. What was the proximity, will you say, if you know, of one
ridge to another? A. These particular ridges were narrow and one ridge was
up and then there was an indentation, then another one was up.
Q. Well, I guess that is about the
best you can do. A. That is the best I can do.
Q. Let us get back to the ladder.
Now you have told us that between the boardwalk and the house you saw some
woman's footprint. A. Yes, sir.
Q. And then you saw some
indentations, as I remember you saying, away from the house—about how far away:
two holes, you call it ? A. Right alongside on the outside of the
boardwalk.
Q. On the outside of the boardwalk?
A. Away from the house.
Q. Away from the house? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. That would be east of the house?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How far would you say, according
to your best judgment; away from the wall, was it? A. Oh, I would say
about two feet.
Q. Two feet? A. Yes, sir
Q. So that first you saw between
the house and this boardwalk a woman's footprints, and then you saw the
boardwalk—By the way, how wide was that walk? A. Certain boards were 12
inches, to approximately—
Q. Right about at that point? A. About
six inches.
Q. The boardwalk about six inches ?
A. Just about.
Q. At that point? A. Yes, as I
recall it.
[438] Q. Then beyond that you saw
these two holes? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How far apart were they from one
another? A. I did not measure them, but I would say approximately 14
inches.
Q. Yes, and then beyond that did
you see a footprint? A. That was way beyond that, yes, sir; that was at
the entrance of the porch; that is a woman's footprint.
Q. Yes, I know that. Now, I think
you told us you also saw another footprint, you measured for 12 inches or so ? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. Where was that footprint? A. That
was facing the house, the footprint was on the right side of this indentation.
Q. The indentation being the hole,
you mean? A. Yes, sir.
Q. That you just described? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. Now how close to that hole was
it? A. About eighteen inches.
Q. About eighteen inches away? A. I
would say about eighteen inches.
Q. Was the footprint in the
direction of the ladder? No, withdraw that. Was the footprint in the direction
of the house? A. Pointing toward the house.
Q. Toward the house and toward the
hole? A. Yes, sir.
Q. So that if the hole was in front
of me here, for illustration, the footprint would be the print in the direction
which I would make if I were standing in soft mud, so to speak? A. That is
about it; yes, sir.
Q. In that direction? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. And about eighteen inches, you
say, away from the — A. Yes, to the
best of my judgment; yes, sir.
Mr. Wilentz: That is all, Officer.
[439] Cross-Examination by Mr. Reilly:
Q. I am showing you State Exhibit S‑37,
showing two indentations. See them (showing the witness) ? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now was all the ground around
the indentation soft and muddy? A. In certain parts.
Q. Was all the ground around this
footprint soft and muddy? A. Around that particular—which footprint is
counsel referring to?
Q. (Examining counsel hands
photograph to witness.) A. Yes, sir.
Mr. Wilentz: Will you go on with
your examination while I go out for a moment?
Mr. Reilly: Certainly.
Mr. Wilentz: Go right ahead. I want
you to go right ahead.
Q. Within a radius of a couple of
feet around this footprint, S‑36, you say the ground was soft and muddy? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. The footprint was how many feet
away from the indentation holes, approximately? A. I would say
approximately 18 inches.
Q. Approximately 18 inches? A. Yes,
sir. That is about a foot and a half.
Q. About how far away from the
boardwalk? A. That is from the boardwalk.
Q. Eighteen inches? A. Because
the boardwalk at the time I saw it, the boardwalk was almost up against—well,
just as it is there (indicating on photograph). It would be a difference of
about two inches, I imagine.
Q. There is no doubt that this
boardwalk was not moved by anybody before the photograph was [440] taken, is
there? A. That I don't know.
Q. You don't know? A. No, sir.
Q. You think that these photographs
were arranged—?
Mr. Large: I submit that is not
justified.
Mr. Reilly: I think it is quite
proper.
Mr. Large: He says himself he does
not think any arrangement was made.
By Mr. Reilly:
Q. Is this board here in the same
condition that you saw it? A. When this photograph was taken I did not see
the board; I was not present.
Q. You were not present? A. No.
Q. Before the photograph was taken,
were you there? A. Yes, sir; that is, on the night of March 1st.
Q. Was the board in the same
condition as it is there? A. Approximately.
Q. Approximately? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You would not say it was in that
exact position, would you? A. Well, I couldn't very well say.
Q. You wouldn't say it had not been
moved by somebody before the photograph was taken? A. No, sir; I couldn't
very well say that.
Q. And yet this board was within
how many inches of where you say the indentation was? A. To the best of my
recollection it was somewhere in the neighborhood of about two inches. I didn't
measure that, of course. As I recall it, the indentations were almost alongside
the board. It was on the outside of the board.
Q. And alongside of the board? A. Yes,
sir.
[441] Q. Anybody using the ladder
could just as well have put the foot of the ladder on the board, could they
not? A. I don't know.
Q. Well, the board was there,
wasn't it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And it was under the window? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. The ground was muddy. A. Yes,
sir.
Q. And if you wanted to use the
ladder and wanted safety so it wouldn't slip, you could put it on the board. A. Well,
the board could slip.
Q. Did you try it? A. No, sir.
Q. Now you want us to believe that
some man—this is a man's footprint, isn't it? A. Yes, sir, I think it is.
Q. Some man came along in muddy
ground within an area of two feet and within the indication as you have given
us of this boardwalk and ladder and only made one footprint? A. That is
all I saw.
Q. And you couldn't find where he
put the other foot at all? A. That is all I saw.
Q. You couldn't find where he put
the other foot at all? A. No, sir, I could not.
Q. Did you see the ladder that
night? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you look at the bottom rung?
A. No, sir.
Q. Why didn't you? A. I didn't
want to get near the vicinity of the ladder. I examined the ladder from a
distance.
Q. Well, you weren't afraid of the
ladder, were you? A. No, sir.
Q. Why didn't you look at the
bottom rung of the ladder to see whether or not there wasn't some mud on it
from the man who walked through the mud? A. I didn't want to get near the
ladder.
Q. Did you see any mud? A. No,
sir, I didn't.
Q. You didn't see any mud on the
ladder at all, did you? A. No, sir.
[442] Q. Did you look at the
ladder? A. At a distance.
Q. How far away? A. Oh, I
would say approximately eight feet.
Q. Eight feet. Where was the ladder
when you did look at it? A. It was approximately 65 to 70 feet east of the
east wall of the house, near some bushes, I would call it; little trees; there
is a big rock there.
Q. Well, what made you so fearful
of going near that ladder? A. Well, I didn't want to disturb that
particular area until daylight came around, where it could be examined a little
better.
Q. Well then, who took the ladder
in the house in the middle of the night? A. To my knowledge, it was
Trooper Bornmann.
Q. Who told him to ? A. That,
I don't know.
Q. Did you see the ladder in the
house? A. No, sir.
Q. Were you there when this
photograph was taken (referring to photograph of footprints) ? A. No, sir.
Q. What did you do to preserve the
footprint when you saw it? A. Why, the only thing I did was to instruct a
trooper that was at the entrance of the yard, this particular place in the
front of the house, to keep everybody away from that place.
Q. You saw this footprint with your
flashlight? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And, did you kneel down and did
you measure it? A. I didn't kneel down, I just, all I had to do was
just—standing on the boardwalk—
Q. Yes. A. All I had to do was
just kind of lean forward and measure it with the flashlight.
Q. I want to know what you measured
it with? Is that what you measured it with ? A. Yes, sir.
Q. You didn't take out a tape? A. No,
sir, I didn't have any.
[443] Q. Did you ever measure it
with the tape? A. Not the footprint itself.
Q. That is what I am talking about.
A. No, sir.
Q. You have given between 12 and 12
1/8, is that correct? A. Between 12 and 12 1/8.
Q. Twelve and twelve and
one-eighth? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you can come that accurately
with a flashlight? A. Yes, sir, I think so.
Q. You think you can? A. Yes.
Q. Well, what prevented you from
going into the house and saying to Mrs. Whateley or Miss Gow: "Give me a
measuring tape?" A. Well—
Q. Nothing? A. I guess I
didn't think of it.
Q. What prevented you from
measuring it? A. Well, I had—
Q. Accurately. A. Well, I had
a five cell Everready Flashlight and that is fourteen and a half inches long. I
measured it with the flashlight.
Q. Well, you couldn't measure with
the flashlight by putting the flashlight into the ground. A. No, sir, but
what I mean to bring out is that I measured from the rear end of the flashlight
and the print ended just about where the groove is on the other side of the
switch.
Q. Did you put the flashlight into
the— A. No, sir.
Q. — depression? A. No, sir.
Q. Well, then, you are giving us
your best guess, isn't that it? A. Yes, sir, just about it.
Q. And on width it is the best
guess; is that correct? A. Beg pardon?
Q. On the width it is the best
guess. A. Yes. I measured that with the palm of my hand.
Q. Now you were not the first
trooper there. A. No, sir.
Q. Other troopers had been there
before you. A. Yes, sir. That is at the footprint?
[444] Q. Yes. A. That I don't
know.
Q. You don't know? A. No, sir.
Q. You don't know whether you were
the first man to discover or Wolf discovered it or who discovered it. A. Correct.
Q. Is that correct? A. That is
correct.
Q. And you don't know whose
footprint it is, do you? A. No, sir, I don't.
Mr. Reilly: That is all.
Mr. Wilentz: That is all, sir.
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