STATE
vs. HAUPTMANN
January 8, 1935
[562] ALFRED
JACOB REICH, sworn as a witness in behalf of the State:
Direct
Examination by Mr. Wilentz: Q. Mr. Reich, in 1932 where did you reside? A. 415 Minneford
Avenue, City Island, the Bronx.
Q. And how long have you lived in the Bronx? A. Twelve
years.
Q. Prior to that where did you reside? A. In
Manhattan, East 34th Street.
Q. That is another borough of New York, is that
it? A. Yes.
Q. How long did you live in New York? A. All
my life.
Q. So that as to Manhattan and the Bronx,
wherever it was, as to the city of New York proper, you have lived there all
your life? A. All my life.
Q. And in March, 1932, were you employed or did
you have any particular occupation? A. I was [563] in the real estate
business, and—’32, yes, the real estate business.
Q. 1932, real estate business? A. Yes.
Q. And prior to that time at sometime in your
life you were a pugilist and boxer, were you not? A. Yes.
Q. How long ago was that? A. I boxed
professionally in 1924 for the last time.
Q. Last time? A. Yes.
Q. Prior to 1924, for how many years had you
been engaged in the boxing profession? A. Eleven years, as a professional.
Q. And also during that time and after that time
did you also act as a referee for prize fights and boxing contests? A. I
am now a licensed referee for professional wrestling and boxing contests in New
York State.
Q. That is to say you mean you are licensed for
the State of New York. A. Yes, sir.
Q. I take it that you were then as you are now a
heavyweight. A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. Now, did you know Dr. Condon? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. Prior to March, 1932,—I withdraw that. For
how many years prior to March, 1932, have you known Dr. John F. Condon? A. I
met Dr. Condon prior to 1925.
Q. At that time and since that time and up to 1932
and up to the present time Dr. Condon has indicated an interest in athletics
and boxing and other sorts of sport, hasn’t he? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And not only have you known him but have you
been very friendly? A. We are together a whole lot going to indoor and
outdoor athletic contests, track and field meets, baseball meets,—
Mr. Reilly: I don’t see how this is material, if
the Court please.
[564] The Court: Well, it does not do any harm.
A. (Continuing.)—professional and amateur
football games—
Mr. Reilly: Now here we go on.
A. (Continuing.)—boxing contests, and so
forth.
Q. So that in March, 1932, there was this
association between you and the doctor. A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you have occasion to drive Dr. Condon sometime
in March, 1932? A. Yes, sir.
Q. In whose automobile? A. My automobile.
Q. Do you remember the date? A. I do not.
Q. Where did you start on this drive? A. From
Dr. Condon’s house.
Q. What time of the day or night was it? A. I
think it was between 8:30 and 9 p.m.
Q. At night? A. yes.
Q. Whose car was it?
The Court: And do you remember the date? The
Witness: No, sir.
Q. What month was it in? A. March, early
part of March.
Q. The early part of March? A. Yes.
Q. What kind of a car was it? A. It was a
Ford coupe with a rumble seat.
Q. Your car? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who was in the car besides you? A. Dr.
Condon.
Q. Just the two of you? A. That’s all.
Q. And so you started off at about 9:30 did you say?
A. Between 8:30 and 9, as far as I remember.
Q. On that night sometime in the early part of March.
A. Yes.
[565] Q. I take it that Dr. Condon’s home was
then as it is now in Decatur Avenue? A. 2974 Decatur.
Q. You left from there? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where did you go with Dr. Condon? A. We
drove up to at that time in the month of March a deserted frankfurter stand about
100 feet, I think, north of the last station on the Jerome Avenue subway.
Q. A hundred feet beyond? A. Yes.
Q. The last station on the Jerome Street subway?
A. Jerome Avenue subway, the last station.
Q. Still in the Bronx? A. Still in the
Bronx.
Q. You said something about a deserted
frankfurter stand? A. Yes, at that time of the year it had not been opened
yet for the summer.
Q. How close was that to the last subway
station? A. About 100 feet north of the last subway station.
Q. Did you drive right up to the frankfurter
stand? A. I drove up and it was on the west side, on the down side, I
would say. We were driving up, and it was on the down side and I turned around
and parked right in front of it.
Q. Then what happened? A. Dr. Condon got
out and went over on to the porch and there was a stone there, about that big
(indicating with his hands).
Q. Wait a minute. That big? Just show us how big
you mean. A. That big (indicating).
Q. What would be your judgment of about that
size? A. I would say a stone weighing maybe ten pounds.
Q. I mean the dimensions more than the weight,
if you can help us. A. It was probably four or five inches in diameter.
Q. And your judgment is that it would weigh
about ten pounds? A. I think so.
Q. Did you see that stone there? A. I saw
it.
Q. As you were seated in your car? A. Yes.
[566] Q. Did you get out of the car at all? A. No.
Q. You did not? A. No, sir.
Q. What did you see happen there if anything,
with reference to this stone and Dr. Condon? A. Dr. Condon got out of the
car and went over to the porch and picked up the stone found a note under it.
Q. Did you see him find the note? A. I did.
Q. And what happened then? A. He came back
towards the car and there was also an electric light at that time and he stood
there, opened the note and read it.
Q. Did you see him standing under the light
opening the note and reading it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Then what happened from that point? A. He
got back into the car.
Q. Yes? A. And I drove across the street on
which side is located Woodlawn Cemetery, and I followed Woodlawn Cemetery north
to 233rd Street.
Q. About how far did you travel from the
frankfurter stand to the point where you next stopped at Woodlawn Cemetery? A. I
would judge offhand about a mile.
Q. Now, let’s understand it, particularly for
the safety of the jury: the Woodlawn Cemetery runs for at least a mile, doesn’t
it? A. I think so.
Q. And when you are traveling along for the
frankfurter stand, along this cemetery, your judgment is that it is at least a
mile that you traveled all along this cemetery highway? A. That is right.
Q. No private residence interspersed, nor
anything like that on the other side of the street? A. No, nothing. The
other side is Van Cortlandt Park.
Q. So on one side of the street is the parkway
and on the other side is the cemetery? A. Van Cortlandt Park and Woodlawn
Cemetery.
Q. No places of business? A. Well, the
frankfurter stand was the only place of business there.
[567] Q. And was that occupied or deserted there
that night? A. Yes.
Q. From the frankfurter stand to the point you
next stopped, after traveling a mile, was there one business establishment
along the highway? A. Nothing.
Q. Deserted, so to speak? A. Yes.
Q. Then you finally stopped? A. At 233rd
Street.
Q. Now, 233rd Street that intersected Jerome
Avenue, didn’t it, that is, it ran into Jerome Avenue? A. Yes.
Q. It is a corner, in other words? A. It
is.
Q. You drove along Jerome Avenue until you came
to 233rd Street, is that it? A. That is right.
Q. Did You get up all the way to 233rd, or did you
stop before you got there? A. Stopped. Well, there isn’t—we stopped where
the curb should be, but I don’t think there is a curb at that particular point.
Q. Take the least. A. Probably so, 65 feet
away from the intersection, the actual street, 233rd Street.
Q. So that you actually didn’t reach the
intersection, 233rd Street? A. No.
Q. So or 75 feet away from it, and before you
reached it you stopped? A. Yes.
Q. There was no curb there you say. A. No.
Q. Sort of a little driveway? A. Well, the
curb—they didn’t put the curb there; there is a curb along there, but it doesn’t
come up right up to the corner.
Q. Well, at that particular time you drove off
the highway and closer to the cemetery, is that what you mean? A. I didn’t
go in very close, but I pulled over to where the curb would be if there was one
there, I think.
Q. I see. And what did you do then? A. I
parked.
Q. What did Dr. Condon do? A. Dr. Condon
got out and stood in the triangle there in front of the entrance to Woodlawn
Cemetery.
[568] Q. All right.
Mr. Wilentz: Now have we got a picture of this
cemetery? Will your Honor pardon us for a second until we try to locate it?
I don’t seem to find it right now, Mr. Reich.
Will you let me have the last question and answer?
(Last question and answer read by the reporter:)
Q. Now, will you please tell us what made up the
triangle? A. Well, the triangle—the Woodlawn Cemetery fence runs right
along inside of the sidewalk, but at this particular corner it doesn’t come up
to the corner, it stops about here on 233rd and about here maybe, say a hundred
feet from the corner, on Jerome Avenue.
Q. In other words, when you refer to a triangle
you don’t mean a triangle in the street. A. No, this is on the sidewalk.
Q. A triangle formed by the meeting of the
various walls of Woodlawn Cemetery. A. Yes.
Q. In other words, does the cemetery come up to
Jerome Avenue and meet it at right angles and go across to 233rd Street? A. No.
Q. So that it comes up to near the corner? A. To
within possibly a hundred feet, on Jerome Avenue, and on 233rd Street.
Q. And then is joined at an angle? A. There
is three gates there, leading into Woodlawn.
Q. And those three gates join and make a sort of
an angle, isn’t that it? A. Yes.
Q. That you call a triangle. A. Yes.
Q. So that if you stand at the very intersection
of Jerome Avenue and 233rd Street, at the very point, the nearest intersection—A. Yes.
[569] Q.—and you look at the gates, you face
them directly, do you not? A. Yes.
Q. About how far from the sidewalk, if there had
been a sidewalk, or a continuation of the sidewalk, if the walk had been
continued, how far back are these gates set, if you know? A. Oh, maybe
between fifty and seventy-five feet.
Q. Now, how far away from the nearest gate to
you was it that you parked your car? A. Well, I was probably thirty or
forty feet away from it.
Q. Then you say Dr. Condon got out? A. Yes.
Q. Where did he go, if you saw him? A. He
stood in the center of this triangle.
Q. And what happened? A. The vacant space
in front of the entrance to Woodlawn.
Q. What happened, sir? A. Well, he stood
there for about ten or fifteen minutes, and it was a very cold night, and then
he came back to the car; he was a bit discouraged. He says, “I don’t know—”
Mr. Reilly: I object.
Q. Well, what did he do then, sir? A. And
he sat with me in the car for maybe about five minutes. Then I saw someone come
walking down south on our side of the street.
Q. How far away from you? A. Well, he was
crossing 233rd Street when I saw him, and I said to the doctor—
Mr. Reilly: I object.
Q. Never mind what you said; but you saw
somebody, and what did you see him do if anything? A. Nothing.
Q. All right. And that figure you saw crossing
233rd Street in the distance. A. Yes.
[570] Q. Is it a wide street or a narrow street,
if you remember? A. Quite wide.
Q. Quite wide, all right. Then as you saw him
you said something to Dr. Condon. What else did you see happen then? A. The
doctor got out and stood in the center of the triangle.
Q. Did you see that figure of the man that you
saw crossing the street and if you did, where did you see him go? A. He
continued on right straight down Jerome Avenue.
Q. Did he pass your car? A. Yes.
Q. All right. And then what happened? A. After
the doctor stayed there for about five or ten minutes, he walked over to the
gate. I couldn’t hear anything, because I had both the door and the window
closed.
Q. Did you see anything? A. No.
Q. Then what did you see happen? A. I saw a
fellow come down off the gate and—
Q. Off what gate? A. The cemetery gate.
Q. About how high was that cemetery gate? A. would
judge about nine feet.
Q. And when you say you saw a man come off the
gate, what do you mean? A. He came down after coming up on it from the
inside, to come out over the gate.
Q. I mean did you see him jump off? A. Yes,
I saw him jump off.
Q. Jump off the gate of Woodlawn Cemetery? A. Yes.
Q. At the entrance there somewhere? A. Yes.
Q. And come down on the ground? A. Yes.
Q. Now prior to his jumping did you see him get
up on the gate? A. No, I didn’t. I couldn’t see him, but I saw the doctor
there talking to someone for maybe ten minutes.
Q. I see. Did you see the doctor and can you
tell [571] us which side of the gate he was on? A. The doctor was on the
outside.
Q. When you say the outside, you mean that part,
that side of the gate nearest the street? A. Yes, sir.
Q. As distinguished from that side of the gate
nearest the cemetery plots? A. Yes.
Q. Now, when you saw this man jump off, landed,
I suppose, out in that portion or somewhere near where Dr. Condon was? A. Yes.
Q. What happened then? A. He ran.
Q. Who ran? A. The man that came down the
gate.
Q. Yes. And in which direction did he run? A. He
ran north into Van Cortlandt Park. Van Cortlandt Park above 233rd Street is on
both sides Jerome Avenue.
Q. I see. At 233rd Street, the cemetery plot
ends: is that not so? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Across the street is a continuation of Van
Cortlandt Park? A. Yes, both on the east and west sides.
Q. So that you have the cemetery on one side,
park on the other, and on the opposite side the park too? A. Yes.
Q. You say he ran across the street to that park.
Do you know whether Jerome Avenue runs north and south? A. I think it
does.
Q. Assuming that it runs north and south, to
right would be to the east, would it not? A. He ran north.
Q. I mean, I want to get the directions. To right
would be to the east and to the left would be the left and right straight ahead
would be to north. Is that it? A. Yes.
Q. And he ran, you say, to the north? A. That
is right.
Q. What then did you see, if anything? A. Thedoctor
followed him.
[572] Q. Yes. A. And they—
Q. How? A. They went in, about a couple of
hundred feet, I imagine.
Q. Well, if you didn’t see it, I am afraid you
won’t be able to imagine. You tell us how far your eyes followed him, if they
followed them at all, either one of them? A. It did, it followed them into
where there was a shack.
Q. Yes? A. With a park bench alongside of
it.
Q. And, could you see them go to that shack? A. Yes,
I could.
Q. The night was clear? A. It was a clear
night.
Q. Would you be able to recognize that shack if you
saw it? A. Oh, yes.
Q. A picture of it? A. Yes.
Q. Will you take a look at that? A. That is
the shack.
Q. Is that a correct picture of the shack? A. I
think so.
Q. Has the position of that shack been changed
since that time or is it the same to the best of your recollection? A. I
think it is the same.
Q. You think the position is the same, too? A. Yes.
Mr. Wilentz: I don’t know when it was taken or
by whom or anyone else (handing photograph to Mr. Reilly).
Q. And what happened then? A. They sat down
on the park bench.
Q. I see.
Mr. Reilly: This is Van Cortlandt Park, is it?
Mr. Wilentz: Yes.
[573] Mr. Reilly: Offer it then.
Mr. Wilentz: I offer it in evidence.
Mr. Reilly: And there is no objection from the
defendant.
The Court: It will be marked.
The Reporter: Exhibit S‑41 in evidence. (The
photograph referred to was received in
evidence and marked State Exhibit S‑4i.)
Q. Now, about how far, according to your best
recollection and your best judgment, is Exhibit S‑41—is that it?
The Reporter: Yes, sir.
Q.—Exhibit S‑41 being this bench, particularly,
from the triangle that you spoke of before, the point where Dr. Condon was
standing talking to some man? A. I would judge it was about a hundred
yards.
Q. About 300 feet? A. Yes.
Q. And how long did you wait there? Did you
continue to wait in your car? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long did you wait there? A. An hour,
about an hour.
Q. You didn’t time yourself, I suppose? A. No,
I didn’t.
Q. And when—A. It was a cold night, it felt
like a week.
Q. And finally, Dr. Condon returned, I take it? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. And where did you go then? A. Went back
to Dr. Condon’s house.
Q. When they got to that shack in the park, [574]
referred to as S‑41, did you see them sit down? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What were their positions, were they close or
far away, or what? A. I thought they were sitting quite far away, as far
as they could, almost, both sitting on the one bench.
Q. What sort of a bench, to your best judgment,
was it? A. I think it was about seven feet long.
Q. Ordinary park bench, wasn’t it? A. Yes,
green.
Q. How could you tell it was green from where
you were? A. Well, I didn’t know it that night, but I think all park
benches are green—all I ever saw were.
Q. You are talking about police stations, aren’t
you? Now, I notice on this picture, sir, that there seems to be indicated
thereon, referring to S‑41, a sidewalk and a curb and a roadway. A. That’s
right.
Q. Is that 233rd Street? A. Yes, sir.
Q. That you have been referring to, in the
Bronx? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And is that the roadway that you talked about
before as intercepting Jerome Avenue in the Bronx? A. Yes, sir.
Mr. Wilentz: If your Honor please, this is all I
have with this witness, and will your Honor please indulge us in the request
for an adjournment at this hour, rather than have counsel start his
cross-examination?
I understand it meets with the approval of my
adversary.
Mr. Reilly: There are some things I want to get
out of my files on this particular witness, that I will have in the morning.
The Court: Yes. Now, one moment. I desire
everybody in the courtroom to remain [575] quietly, just where they are. Now,
the jury may retire and come in tomorrow morning at ten o’clock.
[576] STATE vs. HAUPTMANN
Flemington, N. J., January 9, 1935.
Present: Hon. Thomas W. Trenchard.
Appearances: Mr. Wilentz, Mr. Lanigan, Mr.
Hauck, Mr. Peacock, Mr. Large, For the State.
Mr. Reilly, Mr. Fisher, Mr. Pope, Mr. Rosecrans,
For the Defendant.
The Court: Open the court. Poll the jury.
(The jury was polled and all jurors answered
present.)
The Court: Counsel may proceed.
ALFRED
J. REICH resumed the stand:
Direct
Examination (continued) by Mr. Wilentz:
[577] Q. May we have the last question and
answer, please, Mr. Stenographer?
The Reporter: “Q. And is that the roadway that
you talked about before as intersecting Jerome Avenue in The Bronx? A. Yes,
sir.”
Q. Now, Mr. Reich—is that how you pronounce your
name: right? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Reich? A. Reich, yes.
Q. And you spell it how? A. R-e-i-c-h.
Q. Did you ever spell it R-i-c-c-i or anything
like that? A. No, sir.
Q. On April 2, 1932, and particularly the night
that Colonel Lindbergh and Dr. Condon left in an automobile were you at Dr.
Condon’s home? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you have your automobile there? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. Who else was in the home besides you and Dr.
Condon and Col. Lindbergh? A. Col. Breckinridge; I think Ralph Hacker was
there.
Q. Ralph Hacker? Who is Ralph Hacker? A. Dr.
Condon’s son-in-law.
Q. Was Mrs. Condon there? A. Yes, Mrs.
Condon was there.
Q. How about Mrs. Hacker, the doctor’s daughter?
A. Mrs. Hacker was there, Dr. Condon’s daughter.
Q. Did you go with Col Lindbergh and Dr. Condon
in the car that night? A. No.
Q. Whose car was used, if you know? A. I
suggested that they use my car.
Q. Did they use your car? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And do you know who drove it? A. Colonel
Lindbergh.
Q. So that when Colonel Lindbergh and Dr. [578] Condon
left that night, April the 2nd, 1932, with the money box, left the Condon home,
you remained at home with Colonel Breckinridge and the others?
Mr. Fisher: That is objected to, your Honor. It
embraces in the question a statement that is not a fact in evidence thus far
from this witness.
The Court: About the money box?
Mr. Fisher: Yes.
The Court: Perhaps that better be—
Mr. Wilentz: I understood Colonel Lindbergh to
have testified to that. I don’t think there is any question about it.
Mr. Fisher: There has been nothing in this
witness’ testimony about a money box at all.
Mr. Wilentz: Not in this witness’, but Colonel
Lindbergh so testified.
Mr. Fisher: Then the thing to do would be to
have the witness testify what was there and not—
Mr. Wilentz: I think the Court can regulate that
without the kind suggestion of my delightful adversary.
Mr. Fisher: I hope the Court will so regulate.
[579] The Court: Suppose you ask the witness
what they took with them.
By Mr. Wilentz:
Q. When Colonel Lindbergh and Dr. Condon left
did they take any package or parcel with them? A. They took a box
containing $70,000.
Q. How do you know it was $70,000? A. I was
there when it was packed up and helped bring it up from the banker’s home.
Q. Who did you help bring it up? A. I came
up with fifty of the seventy in the car with Colonel Lindbergh.
Q. When you say you came up with fifty of the
seventy with Colonel Lindbergh, when was that and from where did you come? A. It
was the afternoon of the night of the final payoff.
Q. The afternoon? A. Yes.
Q. That afternoon. A. I drove down with
Colonel Breckinridge to the banker’s home and we met Colonel Lindbergh down
there.
Q. Who was the banker? A. Bartow.
Q. Mr. Bartow? A. I think that is the name.
Q. And there, as I understand it, you and
Colonel Lindbergh got some money and drove to the Condon home? A. Yes, we
took the fifty in Colonel Lindbergh’s car and Colonel Breckinridge took the
twenty in his car.
Q. Am I to understand, then, sir, that the
$70,000 was transported partly by you and Colonel Lindbergh and partly by
Colonel Breckinridge? A. That is right.
Q. And so that finally when you got to the home,
you say that you saw and helped pack this money? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was it packed in? A. It was packed
in a wooden box made of five-ply veneer.
[580] Q. Were you present when that wooden box
left with Colonel Lindbergh and Dr. Condon? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long did you stay in the house that
night? A. I stayed there until they came back.
Q. About what time did they come back? A. Probably
a half or three-quarters of an hour.
Q. Who stayed with you when you were there? A. Colonel
Breckinridge, Mrs. Condon, Mrs. Hacker and Ralph Hacker.
Mr. Wilentz: Take the witness.
Cross
Examination by Mr. Reilly:
Q. Mr. Reich, are you engaged as a sort of a
bodyguard for Dr. Condon? A. No, sir.
Q. But you go around with him? A. Yes.
Q. Have been for how many years? A. Ten
years, about.
Q. Have you any other means of occupation except
referee in prizefights and wrestling matches? A. I have some real estate
interests. I have some real estate interests.
Q. Where? A. On City Island.
Q. Have you a boat? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you ever have a boat on City Island? A. No,
sir.
Q. Did Dr. Condon ever have a boat? A. A
rowboat.
Q. Did he ever have any cabin cruiser? A. No,
sir.
Q. Were you and the doctor in the habit of visiting
City Island? A. I live there.
Q. Well, I mean would the doctor come up and
visit you? A. He came up to his place on City Island.
Q. Were there any conferences concerning this [581]
kidnapping held with your knowledge and consent, or did you participate in any
at City Island? A. No, sir.
Q. Sure about that? A. Not previous to the
kidnapping. Is that what you mean?
Q. During the negotiations were there any
conferences at City Island that you took part in? A. No. Dr. Condon was
too busy at home at that time.
Mr. Reilly: I move to strike it out as not
responsive.
The Court: Strike it out.
Q. Did you participate in any conferences with
Dr. Condon and others at City Island during the negotiations covering the
period around the paying off of the ransom money? A. I don’t remember.
Q. Do you remember going to City Island or Dr.
Condon coming to City Island? A. I don’t remember him coming there after
the, during that time.
Q. Now, City Island is on Long Island Sound,
correct? A. Yes, sir.
Q. An arm of the sound? A. Yes, sir.
Q. In and about Pelham Bay, isn’t it? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. And, in relation to Hunter’s Island where is
City Island? A. City Island lies, I would say south east of Hunter’s Island,
about a, maybe a mile.
Q. And Hunter’s Island is where the summer home
of the New York Athletic Club is. A. No, sir.
Q. Where is the New York Athletic Club? A. The
New York Athletic Club is at Travers Island, [582] about a half mile north of
Hunter’s Island, I would say.
Q. So we have Travers Island, Hunters Island and
City Island all within an area of five miles, correct? A. Yes, sir.
Q. All on the shore of Long Island Sound? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. Did you have anything to do with the insertion
of the ad in the Bronx News? A. No,
sir.
Q. But, you saw it there, didn’t you? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. It was called to your attention by Dr. Condon
wasn’t it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were you in the habit of reading the Bronx News? A. Do you mean, pardon
me, do you mean the original ad?
Q. I mean the very first ad that appeared in the
Bronx News, did you read that? A. I
read it, but not before the first letter came from the kidnaper in answer to
it.
Q. Well, your attention was directed to the ad
by Dr. Condon, wasn’t it? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you read it after the first letter
arrived? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long after the insertion of the ad did
the first letter arrive? A. I don’t know that.
Q. What was the date of the insertion of the ad?
A. I couldn’t say that.
Q. And how do you know how long after the ad was
inserted it was before you read the ad? A. I don’t know.
Q. Who called to your attention that there was
such an ad in The Bronx News? A. I
couldn’t say that, but I saw it afterwards. I was not in touch with Dr. Condon
at that time. That is why he came over to Rosenhain’s restaurant to look for me
and he missed me. I wasn’t there.
Q. How long before that had you been in touch [583]
with him? A. Possibly a few days, Sometimes we went out two or three times
a week to athletic entertainments.
Q. This particular time you hadn’t seen him for
two or three days: is that correct? A. Possibly.
Q. Are you married? A. Yes.
Q. Live with your family on City Island? A. With
my mother.
Q. Well now, will you please tell the jury how
far your home on City Island, in miles,—of course, they are not familiar with
that terrain—is from Dr. Condon’s house, approximately, in miles. A. I am
under the impression that City Island is only about a mile long.
Q. How far would you say your home was from Dr.
Condon’s home? A. Dr. Condon doesn’t have a home on City Island.
Q. I know; he lives in The Bronx: right? A. Yes.
Q. How far is it away from your home at City
Island? A. His home in The Bronx?
Q. Yes. A. I would say about four or five
miles off hand.
Q. Has Dr. Condon also a home on City Island? A. No
more.
Q. Did he have during 1932? A. No, I don’t
think so.
Q. When you say no more, when did he have a home
there? A. Up until about three or four years ago.
Q. Did you ever go to Maine with Dr. Condon? A. No,
sir.
Q. You never visited in a camp? A. No, sir.
Q. Well now, coming down to the day concerning
the ride with the $50,000, up to that time Dr. Condon as far as you know had
never [584] received any notice of when, where or how to pay the $50,000, had
he? A. No, sir.
Q. At whose suggestion was the $50,000 or
$70,000 taken from the banker’s home that day? A. Anything that took place
at the time was done by and with the consent of Colonel Lindbergh and Colonel
Breckinridge and Dr. Condon.
Q. Did you hear Dr. Condon suggest that day or
that afternoon that it would be a good idea to get the money up in the Bronx
that night? No, sir.
Q. Did you hear Colonel Lindbergh say it would
be a good idea to have the money up here tonight? A. No, sir.
Q. Did you hear Colonel Breckinridge say it
would be a good idea to have the money up tonight? A. No, sir.
Q. But, as a matter of fact, as you recall it,
there was no plan to have the money there that night? A. Well, there was
when we went down in the afternoon for it.
Q. What suggested going down for it? A. I
don’t know.
Q. You see, according to the testimony, there
hadn’t been any note found under the florist’s table to pay the money within
thirty-five or forty minutes, had there? A. No. There was a note came by
taxicab, directing them, as I understood it to go to the florist’s table or
under the table.
Q. When? A. That evening, about—
Q. Yes. But the money that was found in the
banker’s home—and the banker’s home was much safer than Dr. Condon’s home wasn’t
it? A. But they—
Q. Wasn’t it? A. Oh, yes.
Q. Yes. The money was downtown in the custody of
a banker. A. Yes, sir.
[585] Q. It was not in the custody of Colonel
Lindbergh, Colonel Breckinridge, Dr. Condon or yourself. A. No, sir.
Q. Is that correct? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Then somebody, and that is what I would like
to find out, if you remember who it was, directed that the money be brought up
to the Bronx, is that correct? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Then when the money gets up to the Bronx, the
boy rings the door bell and presents a letter to Dr. Condon to go someplace, is
that correct? A. Yes, sir.
Q. After the money arrived in the Bronx. A. Yes,
sir.
Q. Who knew the money was to be in the Bronx
that night? A. Colonel Breckinridge, Colonel Lindbergh, Dr. Condon—
Q. And Dr. Condon? A. And myself.
Q. Yes. So that after the money is there in the
Bronx, comes a letter to go here, go there, and pay it off in thirty minutes,
is that correct? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Well, now, you knew they were going out to
pay the money, didn’t you? A. I walked out to the car with Colonel
Lindbergh and Dr. Condon.
Q. Was there any other car there? A. No,
sir.
Q. Did you follow them? A. No, sir.
Q. Why didn’t you? A. There was no
following at any time, they—
Q. Why didn’t you follow them that night? A. Nobody
told me to follow them, I—
Q. But you were very much interested. A. Certainly.
Q. You weren’t afraid of anybody. A. No,
sir. (Laughter.) I had nothing to be afraid of.
Q. No. A. I didn’t think that I would have
to be afraid.
[586] Q. You knew they were going to pay some
unknown person some money. A. Yes.
Q. Didn’t you think it would be a good idea to
go along and capture that person? A. That was all talked over with the
Police Department and the Department of Justice and all the men that were
interested in that.
Q. Do you mean to say that the Police Department
of the City of New York knew that there was going to be a payment that night? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. At that place? A. No, sir; nobody knew
that until they got to the florist’s.
Q. And that information came from Dr. Condon,
didn’t it, when he picked up the supposed note A. Yes, sir.
Q. You weren’t there, were you? A. No, sir.
Q. No. Nobody knew there was to be any payoff
that night but Dr. Condon, did they? A. Yes, sir.
Q. When? A. Colonel Lindbergh, Colonel
Breckinridge and myself knew it.
Q. When the note came from the taxicab driver? A. When
the note came.
Q. Right? A. We had no other way of
knowing.
Q. Why didn’t you notify the police then? A. I
don’t know, I wasn’t one of the executives in this; I was just a dot on the “i.”
(Laughter.)
The Court: Let us understand about this thing.
Unless the people can keep reasonably quiet in this room, there is no
alternative but the rule will have to be to clear the courtroom.
Now, I suppose the people would like to stay
here and, if they want to stay here, they will have to keep reasonably quiet.
Proceed, sir.
[587] By Mr. Reilly: Q. Didn’t you feel that possibly
Colonel Lindbergh and Dr. Condon might be in grave danger? A. I didn’t
think so.
Q. Never gave it a thought? A. No, sir.
Q. These two men were going out with $70,000
into strange territory as far as the Colonel was concerned? A. Yes, sir.
Q. To deliver up $70,000 to somebody and you had
no idea who was to get it, is that right? A. I wouldn’t say that.
Q. What do you mean you wouldn’t say that? A. That
was to be given to the man that wrote these letters that had identified himself
by sending in the sleeping suit as the kidnapper of the Lindbergh baby.
Q. That was your idea, but you didn’t know how
many of a band might be there, did you? A. No.
Q. You didn’t know how many of a group might be
there? A. No.
Q. You didn’t know whether they might try then to
kidnap the Colonel, did you? A. I couldn’t tell that.
Q. No. And you made no effort to follow or
protect them, is that right? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you made no effort to summon the police
or the Government agents, neither you nor Colonel Breckinridge, to surround
that cemetery or surround any spot to protect these two men and the
$70,000, did you? A. I followed
orders.
Q. Who gave you the orders? A. Colonel
Lindbergh, Colonel Breckinridge and Dr. Condon.
Q. Why should they give you any orders? A. I
was there to assist them in what they were trying to do.
[588] Q. Did you offer to go? A. No, sir.
Q. Then they did not give you any orders when
you did not offer to go, did they? A. That never came up.
Q. That never came up? A. My car held only
two people.
Q. It is easy enough to get another car. How did
Colonel Lindbergh come there that night? A. I suggested my car be taken
because we had used it in the first contact, and I thought they might think it
funny if they saw another car.
Q. There was nothing to prevent Colonel
Lindbergh’s car from following your car? A. They had no intention of
capturing whoever it was.
Q. They had no intention of capturing the
kidnaper, is that what you mean to say? A. At that time.
Mr. Reilly: That is all.
Redirect
Examinaton by Mr. Wilentz:
Q. Counsel has asked you about their intention
and I think you stated that they had no intention to capture—A. At the
payoff.
Q. Yes. The intention was to get the baby back,
was it not? A. First.
Mr. Wilentz: Thank you. That is all.
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