NEW JERSEY v BRUNO RICHARD HAUPTMANN: TESTIMONY OF ALFRED JACOB REICH, 19TH STATE WITNESS


STATE vs. HAUPTMANN

January 8, 1935

[562] ALFRED JACOB REICH, sworn as a witness in behalf of the State:

Direct Examination by Mr. Wilentz: Q. Mr. Reich, in 1932 where did you reside? A. 415 Minneford Avenue, City Island, the Bronx.

Q. And how long have you lived in the Bronx? A. Twelve years.

Q. Prior to that where did you reside? A. In Manhattan, East 34th Street.

Q. That is another borough of New York, is that it? A. Yes.

Q. How long did you live in New York? A. All my life.

Q. So that as to Manhattan and the Bronx, wherever it was, as to the city of New York proper, you have lived there all your life? A. All my life.

Q. And in March, 1932, were you employed or did you have any particular occupation? A. I was [563] in the real estate business, and—’32, yes, the real estate business.

Q. 1932, real estate business? A. Yes.

Q. And prior to that time at sometime in your life you were a pugilist and boxer, were you not? A. Yes.

Q. How long ago was that? A. I boxed professionally in 1924 for the last time.

Q. Last time? A. Yes.

Q. Prior to 1924, for how many years had you been engaged in the boxing profession? A. Eleven years, as a professional.

Q. And also during that time and after that time did you also act as a referee for prize fights and boxing contests? A. I am now a licensed referee for professional wrestling and boxing contests in New York State.

Q. That is to say you mean you are licensed for the State of New York. A. Yes, sir.

Q. I take it that you were then as you are now a heavyweight. A. Yes, sir.

Q. All right. Now, did you know Dr. Condon? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Prior to March, 1932,—I withdraw that. For how many years prior to March, 1932, have you known Dr. John F. Condon? A. I met Dr. Condon prior to 1925.

Q. At that time and since that time and up to 1932 and up to the present time Dr. Condon has indicated an interest in athletics and boxing and other sorts of sport, hasn’t he? A. Yes, sir.

Q. And not only have you known him but have you been very friendly? A. We are together a whole lot going to indoor and outdoor athletic contests, track and field meets, baseball meets,—

Mr. Reilly: I don’t see how this is material, if the Court please.

[564] The Court: Well, it does not do any harm.

A. (Continuing.)—professional and amateur football games—

Mr. Reilly: Now here we go on.

A. (Continuing.)—boxing contests, and so forth.

Q. So that in March, 1932, there was this association between you and the doctor. A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you have occasion to drive Dr. Condon sometime in March, 1932? A. Yes, sir.

Q. In whose automobile? A. My automobile.

Q. Do you remember the date? A. I do not.

Q. Where did you start on this drive? A. From Dr. Condon’s house.

Q. What time of the day or night was it? A. I think it was between 8:30 and 9 p.m.

Q. At night? A. yes.

Q. Whose car was it?

The Court: And do you remember the date? The Witness: No, sir.

Q. What month was it in? A. March, early part of March.

Q. The early part of March? A. Yes.

Q. What kind of a car was it? A. It was a Ford coupe with a rumble seat.

Q. Your car? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who was in the car besides you? A. Dr. Condon.

Q. Just the two of you? A. That’s all.

Q. And so you started off at about 9:30 did you say? A. Between 8:30 and 9, as far as I remember.

Q. On that night sometime in the early part of March. A. Yes.

[565] Q. I take it that Dr. Condon’s home was then as it is now in Decatur Avenue? A. 2974 Decatur.

Q. You left from there? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where did you go with Dr. Condon? A. We drove up to at that time in the month of March a deserted frankfurter stand about 100 feet, I think, north of the last station on the Jerome Avenue subway.

Q. A hundred feet beyond? A. Yes.

Q. The last station on the Jerome Street subway? A. Jerome Avenue subway, the last station.

Q. Still in the Bronx? A. Still in the Bronx.

Q. You said something about a deserted frankfurter stand? A. Yes, at that time of the year it had not been opened yet for the summer.

Q. How close was that to the last subway station? A. About 100 feet north of the last subway station.

Q. Did you drive right up to the frankfurter stand? A. I drove up and it was on the west side, on the down side, I would say. We were driving up, and it was on the down side and I turned around and parked right in front of it.

Q. Then what happened? A. Dr. Condon got out and went over on to the porch and there was a stone there, about that big (indicating with his hands).

Q. Wait a minute. That big? Just show us how big you mean. A. That big (indicating).

Q. What would be your judgment of about that size? A. I would say a stone weighing maybe ten pounds.

Q. I mean the dimensions more than the weight, if you can help us. A. It was probably four or five inches in diameter.

Q. And your judgment is that it would weigh about ten pounds? A. I think so.

Q. Did you see that stone there? A. I saw it.

Q. As you were seated in your car? A. Yes.

[566] Q. Did you get out of the car at all? A. No.

Q. You did not? A. No, sir.

Q. What did you see happen there if anything, with reference to this stone and Dr. Condon? A. Dr. Condon got out of the car and went over to the porch and picked up the stone found a note under it.

Q. Did you see him find the note? A. I did.

Q. And what happened then? A. He came back towards the car and there was also an electric light at that time and he stood there, opened the note and read it.

Q. Did you see him standing under the light opening the note and reading it? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Then what happened from that point? A. He got back into the car.

Q. Yes? A. And I drove across the street on which side is located Woodlawn Cemetery, and I followed Woodlawn Cemetery north to 233rd Street.

Q. About how far did you travel from the frankfurter stand to the point where you next stopped at Woodlawn Cemetery? A. I would judge offhand about a mile.

Q. Now, let’s understand it, particularly for the safety of the jury: the Woodlawn Cemetery runs for at least a mile, doesn’t it? A. I think so.

Q. And when you are traveling along for the frankfurter stand, along this cemetery, your judgment is that it is at least a mile that you traveled all along this cemetery highway? A. That is right.

Q. No private residence interspersed, nor anything like that on the other side of the street? A. No, nothing. The other side is Van Cortlandt Park.

Q. So on one side of the street is the parkway and on the other side is the cemetery? A. Van Cortlandt Park and Woodlawn Cemetery.

Q. No places of business? A. Well, the frankfurter stand was the only place of business there.

[567] Q. And was that occupied or deserted there that night? A. Yes.

Q. From the frankfurter stand to the point you next stopped, after traveling a mile, was there one business establishment along the highway? A. Nothing.

Q. Deserted, so to speak? A. Yes.

Q. Then you finally stopped? A. At 233rd Street.

Q. Now, 233rd Street that intersected Jerome Avenue, didn’t it, that is, it ran into Jerome Avenue? A. Yes.

Q. It is a corner, in other words? A. It is.

Q. You drove along Jerome Avenue until you came to 233rd Street, is that it? A. That is right.

Q. Did You get up all the way to 233rd, or did you stop before you got there? A. Stopped. Well, there isn’t—we stopped where the curb should be, but I don’t think there is a curb at that particular point.

Q. Take the least. A. Probably so, 65 feet away from the intersection, the actual street, 233rd Street.

Q. So that you actually didn’t reach the intersection, 233rd Street? A. No.

Q. So or 75 feet away from it, and before you reached it you stopped? A. Yes.

Q. There was no curb there you say. A. No.

Q. Sort of a little driveway? A. Well, the curb—they didn’t put the curb there; there is a curb along there, but it doesn’t come up right up to the corner.

Q. Well, at that particular time you drove off the highway and closer to the cemetery, is that what you mean? A. I didn’t go in very close, but I pulled over to where the curb would be if there was one there, I think.

Q. I see. And what did you do then? A. I parked.

Q. What did Dr. Condon do? A. Dr. Condon got out and stood in the triangle there in front of the entrance to Woodlawn Cemetery.

[568] Q. All right.

Mr. Wilentz: Now have we got a picture of this cemetery? Will your Honor pardon us for a second until we try to locate it?

I don’t seem to find it right now, Mr. Reich. Will you let me have the last question and answer?

(Last question and answer read by the reporter:)

Q. Now, will you please tell us what made up the triangle? A. Well, the triangle—the Woodlawn Cemetery fence runs right along inside of the sidewalk, but at this particular corner it doesn’t come up to the corner, it stops about here on 233rd and about here maybe, say a hundred feet from the corner, on Jerome Avenue.

Q. In other words, when you refer to a triangle you don’t mean a triangle in the street. A. No, this is on the sidewalk.

Q. A triangle formed by the meeting of the various walls of Woodlawn Cemetery. A. Yes.

Q. In other words, does the cemetery come up to Jerome Avenue and meet it at right angles and go across to 233rd Street? A. No.

Q. So that it comes up to near the corner? A. To within possibly a hundred feet, on Jerome Avenue, and on 233rd Street.

Q. And then is joined at an angle? A. There is three gates there, leading into Woodlawn.

Q. And those three gates join and make a sort of an angle, isn’t that it? A. Yes.

Q. That you call a triangle. A. Yes.

Q. So that if you stand at the very intersection of Jerome Avenue and 233rd Street, at the very point, the nearest intersection—A. Yes.

[569] Q.—and you look at the gates, you face them directly, do you not? A. Yes.

Q. About how far from the sidewalk, if there had been a sidewalk, or a continuation of the sidewalk, if the walk had been continued, how far back are these gates set, if you know? A. Oh, maybe between fifty and seventy-five feet.

Q. Now, how far away from the nearest gate to you was it that you parked your car? A. Well, I was probably thirty or forty feet away from it.

Q. Then you say Dr. Condon got out? A. Yes.

Q. Where did he go, if you saw him? A. He stood in the center of this triangle.

Q. And what happened? A. The vacant space in front of the entrance to Woodlawn.

Q. What happened, sir? A. Well, he stood there for about ten or fifteen minutes, and it was a very cold night, and then he came back to the car; he was a bit discouraged. He says, “I don’t know—”

Mr. Reilly: I object.

Q. Well, what did he do then, sir? A. And he sat with me in the car for maybe about five minutes. Then I saw someone come walking down south on our side of the street.

Q. How far away from you? A. Well, he was crossing 233rd Street when I saw him, and I said to the doctor—

Mr. Reilly: I object.

Q. Never mind what you said; but you saw somebody, and what did you see him do if anything? A. Nothing.

Q. All right. And that figure you saw crossing 233rd Street in the distance. A. Yes.

[570] Q. Is it a wide street or a narrow street, if you remember? A. Quite wide.

Q. Quite wide, all right. Then as you saw him you said something to Dr. Condon. What else did you see happen then? A. The doctor got out and stood in the center of the triangle.

Q. Did you see that figure of the man that you saw crossing the street and if you did, where did you see him go? A. He continued on right straight down Jerome Avenue.

Q. Did he pass your car? A. Yes.

Q. All right. And then what happened? A. After the doctor stayed there for about five or ten minutes, he walked over to the gate. I couldn’t hear anything, because I had both the door and the window closed.

Q. Did you see anything? A. No.

Q. Then what did you see happen? A. I saw a fellow come down off the gate and—

Q. Off what gate? A. The cemetery gate.

Q. About how high was that cemetery gate? A. would judge about nine feet.

Q. And when you say you saw a man come off the gate, what do you mean? A. He came down after coming up on it from the inside, to come out over the gate.

Q. I mean did you see him jump off? A. Yes, I saw him jump off.

Q. Jump off the gate of Woodlawn Cemetery? A. Yes.

Q. At the entrance there somewhere? A. Yes.

Q. And come down on the ground? A. Yes.

Q. Now prior to his jumping did you see him get up on the gate? A. No, I didn’t. I couldn’t see him, but I saw the doctor there talking to someone for maybe ten minutes.

Q. I see. Did you see the doctor and can you tell [571] us which side of the gate he was on? A. The doctor was on the outside.

Q. When you say the outside, you mean that part, that side of the gate nearest the street? A. Yes, sir.

Q. As distinguished from that side of the gate nearest the cemetery plots? A. Yes.

Q. Now, when you saw this man jump off, landed, I suppose, out in that portion or somewhere near where Dr. Condon was? A. Yes.

Q. What happened then? A. He ran.

Q. Who ran? A. The man that came down the gate.

Q. Yes. And in which direction did he run? A. He ran north into Van Cortlandt Park. Van Cortlandt Park above 233rd Street is on both sides Jerome Avenue.

Q. I see. At 233rd Street, the cemetery plot ends: is that not so? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Across the street is a continuation of Van Cortlandt Park? A. Yes, both on the east and west sides.

Q. So that you have the cemetery on one side, park on the other, and on the opposite side the park too? A. Yes.

Q. You say he ran across the street to that park. Do you know whether Jerome Avenue runs north and south? A. I think it does.

Q. Assuming that it runs north and south, to right would be to the east, would it not? A. He ran north.

Q. I mean, I want to get the directions. To right would be to the east and to the left would be the left and right straight ahead would be to north. Is that it? A. Yes.

Q. And he ran, you say, to the north? A. That is right.

Q. What then did you see, if anything? A. Thedoctor followed him.

[572] Q. Yes. A. And they—

Q. How? A. They went in, about a couple of hundred feet, I imagine.

Q. Well, if you didn’t see it, I am afraid you won’t be able to imagine. You tell us how far your eyes followed him, if they followed them at all, either one of them? A. It did, it followed them into where there was a shack.

Q. Yes? A. With a park bench alongside of it.

Q. And, could you see them go to that shack? A. Yes, I could.

Q. The night was clear? A. It was a clear night.

Q. Would you be able to recognize that shack if you saw it? A. Oh, yes.

Q. A picture of it? A. Yes.

Q. Will you take a look at that? A. That is the shack.

Q. Is that a correct picture of the shack? A. I think so.

Q. Has the position of that shack been changed since that time or is it the same to the best of your recollection? A. I think it is the same.

Q. You think the position is the same, too? A. Yes.

Mr. Wilentz: I don’t know when it was taken or by whom or anyone else (handing photograph to Mr. Reilly).

Q. And what happened then? A. They sat down on the park bench.

Q. I see.

Mr. Reilly: This is Van Cortlandt Park, is it?

Mr. Wilentz: Yes.

[573] Mr. Reilly: Offer it then.

Mr. Wilentz: I offer it in evidence.

Mr. Reilly: And there is no objection from the defendant.

The Court: It will be marked.

The Reporter: Exhibit S‑41 in evidence. (The photograph referred to was received in

evidence and marked State Exhibit S‑4i.)

Q. Now, about how far, according to your best recollection and your best judgment, is Exhibit S‑41—is that it?

The Reporter: Yes, sir.

Q.—Exhibit S‑41 being this bench, particularly, from the triangle that you spoke of before, the point where Dr. Condon was standing talking to some man? A. I would judge it was about a hundred yards.

Q. About 300 feet? A. Yes.

Q. And how long did you wait there? Did you continue to wait in your car? A. Yes, sir.

Q. How long did you wait there? A. An hour, about an hour.

Q. You didn’t time yourself, I suppose? A. No, I didn’t.

Q. And when—A. It was a cold night, it felt like a week.

Q. And finally, Dr. Condon returned, I take it? A. Yes, sir.

Q. And where did you go then? A. Went back to Dr. Condon’s house.

Q. When they got to that shack in the park, [574] referred to as S‑41, did you see them sit down? A. Yes, sir.

Q. What were their positions, were they close or far away, or what? A. I thought they were sitting quite far away, as far as they could, almost, both sitting on the one bench.

Q. What sort of a bench, to your best judgment, was it? A. I think it was about seven feet long.

Q. Ordinary park bench, wasn’t it? A. Yes, green.

Q. How could you tell it was green from where you were? A. Well, I didn’t know it that night, but I think all park benches are green—all I ever saw were.

Q. You are talking about police stations, aren’t you? Now, I notice on this picture, sir, that there seems to be indicated thereon, referring to S‑41, a sidewalk and a curb and a roadway. A. That’s right.

Q. Is that 233rd Street? A. Yes, sir.

Q. That you have been referring to, in the Bronx? A. Yes, sir.

Q. And is that the roadway that you talked about before as intercepting Jerome Avenue in the Bronx? A. Yes, sir.

Mr. Wilentz: If your Honor please, this is all I have with this witness, and will your Honor please indulge us in the request for an adjournment at this hour, rather than have counsel start his cross-examination?

I understand it meets with the approval of my adversary.

Mr. Reilly: There are some things I want to get out of my files on this particular witness, that I will have in the morning.

The Court: Yes. Now, one moment. I desire everybody in the courtroom to remain [575] quietly, just where they are. Now, the jury may retire and come in tomorrow morning at ten o’clock.

[576] STATE vs. HAUPTMANN

Flemington, N. J., January 9, 1935.

Present: Hon. Thomas W. Trenchard.

Appearances: Mr. Wilentz, Mr. Lanigan, Mr. Hauck, Mr. Peacock, Mr. Large, For the State.

Mr. Reilly, Mr. Fisher, Mr. Pope, Mr. Rosecrans, For the Defendant.

The Court: Open the court. Poll the jury.

(The jury was polled and all jurors answered present.)

The Court: Counsel may proceed.

ALFRED J. REICH resumed the stand:

Direct Examination (continued) by Mr. Wilentz:

[577] Q. May we have the last question and answer, please, Mr. Stenographer?

The Reporter: “Q. And is that the roadway that you talked about before as intersecting Jerome Avenue in The Bronx? A. Yes, sir.”

Q. Now, Mr. Reich—is that how you pronounce your name: right? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Reich? A. Reich, yes.

Q. And you spell it how? A. R-e-i-c-h.

Q. Did you ever spell it R-i-c-c-i or anything like that? A. No, sir.

Q. On April 2, 1932, and particularly the night that Colonel Lindbergh and Dr. Condon left in an automobile were you at Dr. Condon’s home? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you have your automobile there? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who else was in the home besides you and Dr. Condon and Col. Lindbergh? A. Col. Breckinridge; I think Ralph Hacker was there.

Q. Ralph Hacker? Who is Ralph Hacker? A. Dr. Condon’s son-in-law.

Q. Was Mrs. Condon there? A. Yes, Mrs. Condon was there.

Q. How about Mrs. Hacker, the doctor’s daughter? A. Mrs. Hacker was there, Dr. Condon’s daughter.

Q. Did you go with Col Lindbergh and Dr. Condon in the car that night? A. No.

Q. Whose car was used, if you know? A. I suggested that they use my car.

Q. Did they use your car? A. Yes, sir.

Q. And do you know who drove it? A. Colonel Lindbergh.

Q. So that when Colonel Lindbergh and Dr. [578] Condon left that night, April the 2nd, 1932, with the money box, left the Condon home, you remained at home with Colonel Breckinridge and the others?

Mr. Fisher: That is objected to, your Honor. It embraces in the question a statement that is not a fact in evidence thus far from this witness.

The Court: About the money box?

Mr. Fisher: Yes.

The Court: Perhaps that better be—

Mr. Wilentz: I understood Colonel Lindbergh to have testified to that. I don’t think there is any question about it.

Mr. Fisher: There has been nothing in this witness’ testimony about a money box at all.

Mr. Wilentz: Not in this witness’, but Colonel Lindbergh so testified.

Mr. Fisher: Then the thing to do would be to have the witness testify what was there and not—

Mr. Wilentz: I think the Court can regulate that without the kind suggestion of my delightful adversary.

Mr. Fisher: I hope the Court will so regulate.

[579] The Court: Suppose you ask the witness what they took with them.

By Mr. Wilentz:

Q. When Colonel Lindbergh and Dr. Condon left did they take any package or parcel with them? A. They took a box containing $70,000.

Q. How do you know it was $70,000? A. I was there when it was packed up and helped bring it up from the banker’s home.

Q. Who did you help bring it up? A. I came up with fifty of the seventy in the car with Colonel Lindbergh.

Q. When you say you came up with fifty of the seventy with Colonel Lindbergh, when was that and from where did you come? A. It was the afternoon of the night of the final payoff.

Q. The afternoon? A. Yes.

Q. That afternoon. A. I drove down with Colonel Breckinridge to the banker’s home and we met Colonel Lindbergh down there.

Q. Who was the banker? A. Bartow.

Q. Mr. Bartow? A. I think that is the name.

Q. And there, as I understand it, you and Colonel Lindbergh got some money and drove to the Condon home? A. Yes, we took the fifty in Colonel Lindbergh’s car and Colonel Breckinridge took the twenty in his car.

Q. Am I to understand, then, sir, that the $70,000 was transported partly by you and Colonel Lindbergh and partly by Colonel Breckinridge? A. That is right.

Q. And so that finally when you got to the home, you say that you saw and helped pack this money? A. Yes, sir.

Q. What was it packed in? A. It was packed in a wooden box made of five-ply veneer.

[580] Q. Were you present when that wooden box left with Colonel Lindbergh and Dr. Condon? A. Yes, sir.

Q. How long did you stay in the house that night? A. I stayed there until they came back.

Q. About what time did they come back? A. Probably a half or three-quarters of an hour.

Q. Who stayed with you when you were there? A. Colonel Breckinridge, Mrs. Condon, Mrs. Hacker and Ralph Hacker.

Mr. Wilentz: Take the witness.

Cross Examination by Mr. Reilly:

Q. Mr. Reich, are you engaged as a sort of a bodyguard for Dr. Condon? A. No, sir.

Q. But you go around with him? A. Yes.

Q. Have been for how many years? A. Ten years, about.

Q. Have you any other means of occupation except referee in prizefights and wrestling matches? A. I have some real estate interests. I have some real estate interests.

Q. Where? A. On City Island.

Q. Have you a boat? A. No, sir.

Q. Did you ever have a boat on City Island? A. No, sir.

Q. Did Dr. Condon ever have a boat? A. A rowboat.

Q. Did he ever have any cabin cruiser? A. No, sir.

Q. Were you and the doctor in the habit of visiting City Island? A. I live there.

Q. Well, I mean would the doctor come up and visit you? A. He came up to his place on City Island.

Q. Were there any conferences concerning this [581] kidnapping held with your knowledge and consent, or did you participate in any at City Island? A. No, sir.

Q. Sure about that? A. Not previous to the kidnapping. Is that what you mean?

Q. During the negotiations were there any conferences at City Island that you took part in? A. No. Dr. Condon was too busy at home at that time.

Mr. Reilly: I move to strike it out as not responsive.

The Court: Strike it out.

Q. Did you participate in any conferences with Dr. Condon and others at City Island during the negotiations covering the period around the paying off of the ransom money? A. I don’t remember.

Q. Do you remember going to City Island or Dr. Condon coming to City Island? A. I don’t remember him coming there after the, during that time.

Q. Now, City Island is on Long Island Sound, correct? A. Yes, sir.

Q. An arm of the sound? A. Yes, sir.

Q. In and about Pelham Bay, isn’t it? A. Yes, sir.

Q. And, in relation to Hunter’s Island where is City Island? A. City Island lies, I would say south east of Hunter’s Island, about a, maybe a mile.

Q. And Hunter’s Island is where the summer home of the New York Athletic Club is. A. No, sir.

Q. Where is the New York Athletic Club? A. The New York Athletic Club is at Travers Island, [582] about a half mile north of Hunter’s Island, I would say.

Q. So we have Travers Island, Hunters Island and City Island all within an area of five miles, correct? A. Yes, sir.

Q. All on the shore of Long Island Sound? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you have anything to do with the insertion of the ad in the Bronx News? A. No, sir.

Q. But, you saw it there, didn’t you? A. Yes, sir.

Q. It was called to your attention by Dr. Condon wasn’t it? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Were you in the habit of reading the Bronx News? A. Do you mean, pardon me, do you mean the original ad?

Q. I mean the very first ad that appeared in the Bronx News, did you read that? A. I read it, but not before the first letter came from the kidnaper in answer to it.

Q. Well, your attention was directed to the ad by Dr. Condon, wasn’t it? A. No, sir.

Q. Did you read it after the first letter arrived? A. Yes, sir.

Q. How long after the insertion of the ad did the first letter arrive? A. I don’t know that.

Q. What was the date of the insertion of the ad? A. I couldn’t say that.

Q. And how do you know how long after the ad was inserted it was before you read the ad? A. I don’t know.

Q. Who called to your attention that there was such an ad in The Bronx News? A. I couldn’t say that, but I saw it afterwards. I was not in touch with Dr. Condon at that time. That is why he came over to Rosenhain’s restaurant to look for me and he missed me. I wasn’t there.

Q. How long before that had you been in touch [583] with him? A. Possibly a few days, Sometimes we went out two or three times a week to athletic entertainments.

Q. This particular time you hadn’t seen him for two or three days: is that correct? A. Possibly.

Q. Are you married? A. Yes.

Q. Live with your family on City Island? A. With my mother.

Q. Well now, will you please tell the jury how far your home on City Island, in miles,—of course, they are not familiar with that terrain—is from Dr. Condon’s house, approximately, in miles. A. I am under the impression that City Island is only about a mile long.

Q. How far would you say your home was from Dr. Condon’s home? A. Dr. Condon doesn’t have a home on City Island.

Q. I know; he lives in The Bronx: right? A. Yes.

Q. How far is it away from your home at City Island? A. His home in The Bronx?

Q. Yes. A. I would say about four or five miles off hand.

Q. Has Dr. Condon also a home on City Island? A. No more.

Q. Did he have during 1932? A. No, I don’t think so.

Q. When you say no more, when did he have a home there? A. Up until about three or four years ago.

Q. Did you ever go to Maine with Dr. Condon? A. No, sir.

Q. You never visited in a camp? A. No, sir.

Q. Well now, coming down to the day concerning the ride with the $50,000, up to that time Dr. Condon as far as you know had never [584] received any notice of when, where or how to pay the $50,000, had he? A. No, sir.

Q. At whose suggestion was the $50,000 or $70,000 taken from the banker’s home that day? A. Anything that took place at the time was done by and with the consent of Colonel Lindbergh and Colonel Breckinridge and Dr. Condon.

Q. Did you hear Dr. Condon suggest that day or that afternoon that it would be a good idea to get the money up in the Bronx that night? No, sir.

Q. Did you hear Colonel Lindbergh say it would be a good idea to have the money up here tonight? A. No, sir.

Q. Did you hear Colonel Breckinridge say it would be a good idea to have the money up tonight? A. No, sir.

Q. But, as a matter of fact, as you recall it, there was no plan to have the money there that night? A. Well, there was when we went down in the afternoon for it.

Q. What suggested going down for it? A. I don’t know.

Q. You see, according to the testimony, there hadn’t been any note found under the florist’s table to pay the money within thirty-five or forty minutes, had there? A. No. There was a note came by taxicab, directing them, as I understood it to go to the florist’s table or under the table.

Q. When? A. That evening, about—

Q. Yes. But the money that was found in the banker’s home—and the banker’s home was much safer than Dr. Condon’s home wasn’t it? A. But they—

Q. Wasn’t it? A. Oh, yes.

Q. Yes. The money was downtown in the custody of a banker. A. Yes, sir.

[585] Q. It was not in the custody of Colonel Lindbergh, Colonel Breckinridge, Dr. Condon or yourself. A. No, sir.

Q. Is that correct? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Then somebody, and that is what I would like to find out, if you remember who it was, directed that the money be brought up to the Bronx, is that correct? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Then when the money gets up to the Bronx, the boy rings the door bell and presents a letter to Dr. Condon to go someplace, is that correct? A. Yes, sir.

Q. After the money arrived in the Bronx. A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who knew the money was to be in the Bronx that night? A. Colonel Breckinridge, Colonel Lindbergh, Dr. Condon—

Q. And Dr. Condon? A. And myself.

Q. Yes. So that after the money is there in the Bronx, comes a letter to go here, go there, and pay it off in thirty minutes, is that correct? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Well, now, you knew they were going out to pay the money, didn’t you? A. I walked out to the car with Colonel Lindbergh and Dr. Condon.

Q. Was there any other car there? A. No, sir.

Q. Did you follow them? A. No, sir.

Q. Why didn’t you? A. There was no following at any time, they—

Q. Why didn’t you follow them that night? A. Nobody told me to follow them, I—

Q. But you were very much interested. A. Certainly.

Q. You weren’t afraid of anybody. A. No, sir. (Laughter.) I had nothing to be afraid of.

Q. No. A. I didn’t think that I would have to be afraid.

[586] Q. You knew they were going to pay some unknown person some money. A. Yes.

Q. Didn’t you think it would be a good idea to go along and capture that person? A. That was all talked over with the Police Department and the Department of Justice and all the men that were interested in that.

Q. Do you mean to say that the Police Department of the City of New York knew that there was going to be a payment that night? A. Yes, sir.

Q. At that place? A. No, sir; nobody knew that until they got to the florist’s.

Q. And that information came from Dr. Condon, didn’t it, when he picked up the supposed note A. Yes, sir.

Q. You weren’t there, were you? A. No, sir.

Q. No. Nobody knew there was to be any payoff that night but Dr. Condon, did they? A. Yes, sir.

Q. When? A. Colonel Lindbergh, Colonel Breckinridge and myself knew it.

Q. When the note came from the taxicab driver? A. When the note came.

Q. Right? A. We had no other way of knowing.

Q. Why didn’t you notify the police then? A. I don’t know, I wasn’t one of the executives in this; I was just a dot on the “i.” (Laughter.)

The Court: Let us understand about this thing. Unless the people can keep reasonably quiet in this room, there is no alternative but the rule will have to be to clear the courtroom.

Now, I suppose the people would like to stay here and, if they want to stay here, they will have to keep reasonably quiet.

Proceed, sir.

[587] By Mr. Reilly: Q. Didn’t you feel that possibly Colonel Lindbergh and Dr. Condon might be in grave danger? A. I didn’t think so.

Q. Never gave it a thought? A. No, sir.

Q. These two men were going out with $70,000 into strange territory as far as the Colonel was concerned? A. Yes, sir.

Q. To deliver up $70,000 to somebody and you had no idea who was to get it, is that right? A. I wouldn’t say that.

Q. What do you mean you wouldn’t say that? A. That was to be given to the man that wrote these letters that had identified himself by sending in the sleeping suit as the kidnapper of the Lindbergh baby.

Q. That was your idea, but you didn’t know how many of a band might be there, did you? A. No.

Q. You didn’t know how many of a group might be there? A. No.

Q. You didn’t know whether they might try then to kidnap the Colonel, did you? A. I couldn’t tell that.

Q. No. And you made no effort to follow or protect them, is that right? A. Yes, sir.

Q. And you made no effort to summon the police or the Government agents, neither you nor Colonel Breckinridge, to surround that cemetery or surround any spot to protect these two men and the $70,000,  did you? A. I followed orders.

Q. Who gave you the orders? A. Colonel Lindbergh, Colonel Breckinridge and Dr. Condon.

Q. Why should they give you any orders? A. I was there to assist them in what they were trying to do.

[588] Q. Did you offer to go? A. No, sir.

Q. Then they did not give you any orders when you did not offer to go, did they? A. That never came up.

Q. That never came up? A. My car held only two people.

Q. It is easy enough to get another car. How did Colonel Lindbergh come there that night? A. I suggested my car be taken because we had used it in the first contact, and I thought they might think it funny if they saw another car.

Q. There was nothing to prevent Colonel Lindbergh’s car from following your car? A. They had no intention of capturing whoever it was.

Q. They had no intention of capturing the kidnaper, is that what you mean to say? A. At that time.

Mr. Reilly: That is all.

Redirect Examinaton by Mr. Wilentz:

Q. Counsel has asked you about their intention and I think you stated that they had no intention to capture—A. At the payoff.

Q. Yes. The intention was to get the baby back, was it not? A. First.

Mr. Wilentz: Thank you. That is all.

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