January
8, 1935
[512]
JOSEPH ANTHONY PERRONE, sworn as a
witness on behalf of the State:
Direct Examination by Mr. Wilentz:
Q. In
March, 1932, Mr. Perrone, where did you live? A. I lived at 2010 Powell
Avenue.
Q. Where
is Powell Avenue? A. In the Bronx. Q. That is in the State of New
York, is it not? A. Yes, sir.
Q. It
is part of the City of New York? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Powell,
is it P-o-w-e-1-1? A. That is right. Q. And, in March, 1932, what
means did you follow for a livelihood? A. Taxicab chauffeur.
Q. Employed
by whom? A. Rosenblatt.
Q. They
operate a chain of— A. Taxicabs.
Q. And,
how long had you been employed as a taxi driver? A. For Rosenblatt
Brothers?
[513]
Q. Any place? A. I have been driving sixteen years, if that is what
you mean.
Q. You
will have to talk above a whisper, because you have got the entire jury to talk
to here and this gentleman sitting way in the corner has got to hear it. A. Sixteen
years.
Q. As
a taxi driver? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What
is your present occupation? A. Present occupation, I have been working at
the C. W. A.
Q. C.
W. A.? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now
in March, 1932, I think you said you were living in the Bronx? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. Are
you living in the Bronx now? A. Yes, sir.
Q. In
your capacity as a taxi driver did you have occasion to visit the home of Dr.
John F. Condon? A. Yes, sir.
Q. At
what address? A. 2974 Decatur Avenue.
Q. What
date was it, if you remember? A. March 12th, 1932.
Q. What
was the occasion of your visit to the home of Dr. John F: Condon? A. I had
a man give me an envelope addressed to Dr. Condon.
Q. Who
is the man that gave you that envelope? A. Bruno Richard Hauptmann.
Q. Is
he in this room? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Come
down and point him out, please.
(Witness
places his hand on shoulder of man in the courtroom.)
A. That
is the man.
Q. All
right. Just go back. Indicating the defendant, Bruno Richard Hauptmann.
Mr.
Reilly: Did the stenographer get the defendant's answer?
[514]
Mr. Wilentz: That is the defendant.
Mr.
Reilly: But did the stenographer get the defendant's answer?
Mr.
Wilentz: I object to the interruption.
Mr.
Reilly: I want the record correct.
Mr.
Wilentz: The record will be correct, but if the stenographer wants it
corrected, she does not need the assistance of eminent counsel.
The
Court: If there is any question of how the record stands, the stenographer may
read the record and we will see about it.
(The
reporter read the record as above recorded.)
The
Court: Well, now we see how the record stands.
Mr.
Reilly: I move that the record be amended to take the answer of the defendant
to the witness.
The
Court: The record is presumed to be correct. I have no reason to doubt that it
is incorrect.
Mr.
Reilly: I am prepared to show proof right now, by five or six people here, that
the defendant made an answer to the accusation of the witness, and I believe it
belongs in the record. I am sorry the stenographer didn't hear it. We all heard
it.
[515]
Mr. Wilentz: I did not hear any answer.
Mr.
Reilly: We all heard it—the press heard it.
The
Court: The press may be called as witnesses at the proper time, Mr. Reilly. If
there is any such thing as that, you will have an opportunity at the proper
time to show what was said; but let the record stand as it is for the moment.
Q. All
right now, sir, tell us the circumstances under which this note or paper was
given to you which you just stated you delivered to the home of Dr. Condon on
that day in March? A. There is a little noise, Mr. Wilentz, I didn't get
you.
Mr.
Wilentz: All right, it has quieted down now, and I will ask the stenographer to
repeat the question.
(The
reporter repeats the question.)
A. You
want me to describe how I got it?
Q. Just
exactly what happened when you received that note and just prior to that? A. I
happened to be on a hack stand—
Mr.
Reilly: We can't hear a word you say.
Mr.
Wilentz: All right, I will try to regulate it in some way.
The
Court: There seems to be no reason that I know of why this gentleman here
should not speak so that everybody here in the imme- [516] diate vicinity of
the witness should not hear him.
Mr.
Wilentz: Yes, sir.
The
Court: He seems like a good strong healthy individual. Now, won't you speak up
in very much the same tone of voice that employed?
The
Witness: Yes, sir.
The
Court: Yes, so that we can all hear.
A. I
happened to be on a hack stand at Marsholu Parkway and Jerome Avenue, March 12th.
Q. Is
that in the Bronx? A. Yes, sir. While on the hack stand, I had a young man
ask me to drive him to 3440 Knox Place. After discharging this fare, I drove
east on Gun Hill Road and when I got—
Q. Take
your hand down. You. drove to Gun Hill Road. A. Yes, sir.
Q. What
happened then? A. I arrived at Knox Place in Gun Hill Road and a man came
running to me with his hand raised motioning me to stop. I stopped my cab and
this man tried to open the front right side of my door and I motioned to this
man to wait a minute, that I would lower the window which I did. This man kept
looking around first before he ever said a word to me. When he did he asked me
if I knew where Decatur Avenue was. I told him I did, that I was familiar with
the neighborhood. With that he put his hand in his overcoat pocket and brought
out an envelope, looking at the envelope he said, “Do you know where 2974 is?”
I said, “Yes, I am familiar with the neighborhood.” This man, [517] looking
around, again put his hand into the very same pocket and gave me a dollar bill
to deliver the envelope.
Q. Did
he ask you to deliver it? A. No, sir; he did not.
Q. Just
gave you the envelope and a dollar? A. Yes, sir. And when he did that he
walked to the rear of my cab and put his hand in his pocket; now, I don't know
which it was, and taking down my license plate number.
Mr.
Reilly: I object to that as calling for a conclusion.
Q. Well,
he was writing something? A. He was writing something.
Q. And
when he was writing, right immediately prior to his writing, were his eyes
focused or directed at anything, as you saw it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What
was it? A. Right at the license plate number.
Mr.
Reilly: Well, that is a conclusion. I object to it. The man might have been
looking at the back of the car.
The
Court: Well, he says looking at the license plate. I suppose that is competent
testimony, for what it is worth.
Mr.
Reilly: Yes.
Q. How
did it happen that you observed that when you are seated in front and he is in
back? A. Well, the way he acted, I had my eyes on him—
Mr.
Reilly: I object to the way he acted.
[518]
A. (continuing)—from the moment he gave me the note and started speaking
to me, and he—
Q. Did
you look around? A. Yes. And he had to go like that (illustrating) to me
before I left.
Q. From
the back? A. From the back.
Q. When
you say he went like that, you are motioning with your hand, your right hand? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. And
waving your hand away from you? A. Yes.
Q. Is
that the manner in which he waved that night? A. That is right.
Q. And
where was he when he was waving his hand that way? A. In the rear of my
taxicab, at the rear of my taxicab.
Q. And
you saw him while he was doing it? A. Yes.
Q. Was
the wave directed to you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And
as the result of that wave, did you comply with it and proceed then? A. I
did, yes, sir.
Q. Where
did you go then? A. I drove south on Jerome Avenue—
Q. Still
in the Bronx? A. Still in the Bronx.
Q. Yes.
A. When I passed the hack stand I showed this letter with the dollar; I
waved it to another cab driver on the hack stand that I had just previously
left.
Q. What
was his name? A. James O'Brien.
Q. Did
you then proceed? A. Why, he asked me where I was going with the letter.
Q. Yes.
A. I told him to—
Mr.
Reilly: I object.
A. (Continuing)
I said—
Q. Well,
whatever you told him, you told him something and then what did you do? A. I
delivered the envelope.
[519]
Q. When you got to Dr. Condon's home what did you do? A. I rang the
doorbell.
Q. And
who came to the door? A. Dr. Condon.
Q. And
what happened? A. He asked me would I step inside.
Mr.
Reilly: I object to what he asked him.
Q. Well,
at any rate, what happened? Not what he asked you. What did you do? A. I
gave the envelope to Dr. Condon.
Q. And
did you give him your name or anything? A. Yes, sir; I did. Dr. Condon
asked me would I know this man again if I saw him, and I told Dr. Condon—
Mr.
Reilly: I object to what he told Dr. Condon.
Q. Well,
never mind; never mind. Counsel objects to it, and we will forget that part of
it. At any rate, you delivered the note, didn't you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And
you left? A. I left.
Q. Do
you know what the fare was, taxi fare from the point that you got this note to
Dr. Condon's home? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How
much? A. When I got there?
Q. You
got a dollar, in other words? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How
much was actually the cost of the fare? A. Why, fifty cents.
Q. So
that the dollar bill paid for the fare and some money besides? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. What
time of the night was it, what was the weather condition at the time and what
have you to say as to the visibility at the point and place at which you received
this note? A. Well, there was an arc [520] light there right underneath
the street light.
Q. Yes?
A. And plenty of light there.
Q. What
time of the night was it? A. Between the hour of 7:45 and 8:30.
The
Court: What time?
The
Witness: Between the—
The
Court: What time?
Mr.
Wilentz: 7:45 and 8:30, did you say?
The
Witness: Yes, sir.
Q. Was
Dr. Condon's name on the envelope written on the envelope? A. Yes, sir.
Q. That
was given to you by this man? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Do
you know where Woodlawn Cemetery is? A. Yes, sir, I do.
Q. How
far is it if you know from the point at which you received this note? A. Oh,
about two miles.
Q. Do
you know where St. Raymond's Cemetery is? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How
far is it from there? A. It is quite a little ways.
Q. Well,
about how far? A. About five or six miles.
Q. Do
you know where— How far is it from Condon's home? A. Oh, about four or
five, I should say, I think.
Q. Four
or five what? A. Miles.
Q. To
Condon's home from this place where you received the note? A. No, not from
where I received the note.
Q. I
want to know from the place where you re- [521] ceived the note to Dr. Condon's
home. A. That is about a mile.
Q. Have
you since learned where Mr. Hauptmann the defendant, resided at that time and
now resides, or did reside? A. I don't get that.
Q. Do
you know where East 222nd Street is in the Bronx? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And
about where 1279 East 222nd Street is? A. Well, I don't know just about
where it is.
Q. Since
his arrest, have you seen his home in the Bronx? A. Yes, sir.
Q. How
far is his home in the Bronx from the place that you received this note? A. Why,
about three miles.
Q. About
three miles. All of these places are in the Bronx that I mention? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. And
that man that you are talking about, when you talk about the man that stopped
you, the man that waved his hand and the man that did this and that, you are
referring to one man, are you not? A. That is right.
Q. Who
is the man you are referring to? A. Richard Bruno Hauptmann.
Q. The
defendant in this case? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Now
Perrone, there is no question in your mind is there or is there any question
that this is the man, Hauptmann, that gave you that note that night in March?
Mr.
Reilly: I object to that.
Mr.
Wilentz: I withdraw it.
Q. Is
there any question at all in your mind as to the identity of Mr. Hauptmann
being the man that gave you this note?
[522]
Mr. Reilly: Again I object. He has already answered.
Mr.
Wilentz: If he does not want it that certain, let it go at that. Take the
witness.
Mr.
Reilly: It is not what I want. The rules of evidence provide for certain
things.
Mr.
Wilentz: All right then, I will withdraw it.
Cross-Examination by Mr. Reilly:
Q. Who
did you come down here with today? A. Today? I came down here with a State
trooper today.
Q. Keep
your voice up. State troopers? A. Yes.
Q. Did
they come to New York and get you? A. No, sir.
Q. Where
were you? A. I was sleeping in the barracks in West Trenton.
Q. How
long have you been sleeping in the barracks? A. Well, I arrived here
yesterday morning by train and I slept there last night.
Q. You
are working now for the C.C.? A. C.W.A.
Q. What
are you doing? A. Why, I am painting, painting in the park, in the Bronx.
Q. How
long have you been doing that? A. Oh, I have been on the C.W.A. now
close to two years.
Q. How
did you obtain the position? A. Of painting?
Q. How
did you obtain the position? A. Why, through the business in the taxicab
business I couldn't earn enough living at it so I had to apply for work at the
C.W.A.
[523]
Mr. Wilentz: A little louder, please.
Q. You
gave up the taxicab business to apply for the C.W.A., is that your answer? A. No,
sir, I didn't give it up.
Q. Let's
have the right answer.
Mr.
Wilentz: Let's have the answer he gave if you don't mind, please.
The
Court: Let the stenographer read the record.
(The
reporter read answer as follows: “Why, through the business, in the taxicab
business I couldn't earn enough living at it so I had to apply for work at the
C.W.A.”)
Q. Well,
now, how much were you making a week in the taxicab business just before you
applied for the C.W.A.? A. Why, not quite twenty or twenty-five dollars
per week.
Q. And
what are you making now with the C.W.A.? A. I get forty-eight dollars per
month.
Q. Forty-eight
dollars a month? A. Yes.
Q. And
how much is that a week, $48 a month, and how much is that a week? A. Well,
that is $12 a week. I work one week on and one off, I get two weeks a month;
that is every other week I work.
Q. That
is, you get $48 a month? A. Yes.
Q. $12
a week—Or $24 a week, when you work every other week? Which is a hundred a
month? A. Not quite that much.
Q. Don't
you know you secured your position with the C.W.A. through the influence of
people connected with this case? A. No, sir; I did not.
[524]
Mr. Wilentz: Just a minute. I object to counsel asking that type of question
unless he has a basis for it.
The
Court: Well, the question has been answered, and the answer may stand.
Q. Just
what date did you give up the taxicab business? A. I didn't give it up,
Mr. Reilly.
Q. Well,
just what date did you stop driving a taxicab? A. I am still driving a
taxicab, Mr. Reilly.
Q. When?
A. What do you mean, when?
Q. Are
you working for the C.W.A., or are you driving a taxi? A. I am doing both.
Q. Then
you have two jobs. A. That is right.
Q. Don't
you know that is prohibited by the C.W.A.?
Mr.
Wilentz: I object to that.
A. No,
sir; it is not.
The
Court: Mr. Reilly, I cannot see that that is material.
Mr.
Reilly: It goes to the credibility. He is throwing himself on the mercy of the
City of New York, and we are giving him a job in the C.W.A., paying $12, a
week, and at the same time he is driving a taxicab.
Mr.
Wilentz: He happens to be less fortunate than some of us, who don't have to do
that.
Mr.
Reilly: That isn't the practice of our rules in New York, applications for
relief—
[525]
The Court: Your implication is it has a tendency to affect his credibility?
Mr.
Reilly: Yes, sir.
The
Court: Let him answer.
Mr.
Wilentz: What is the question? Let us have the question and the answer.
By
Mr. Reilly:
Mr.
Reilly: What is the question and answer.
(Reporter
repeats the last question and answer: “Q. Don't you know that is
prohibited by the C.W.A.? A. No, sir; it is not.”)
Q. Who
told you it was not prohibited—? Withdrawn. The C.W.A. is relief, isn't it? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. From
the Government? A. From the City, I think.
Q. The
City? A. Yes, sir.
Q. For
those who are unemployed? A. That is right.
Q. Now,
don't you know that if they knew you were driving or had any other employment,
you would not be permitted on the rolls of the C.W.A. charity relief? A. Not
at the time I applied for it.
Q. Well,
you are still there, aren't you? A. I am still there, yes, sir.
Q. Now,
have you been ever convicted of any traffic violation?
Mr.
Wilentz: Just a minute; just a minute. Now, please, young man—Of course, I
object to it, because my understanding of the law is it is not permissible, not
admissible and not ma- [526] terial, whether he has been convicted of a traffic
violation, even a man charged with a traffic violation, as I understand it, the
question wouldn't be admissible, it is not a crime.
The
Court: You may ask the witness whether or not he has ever been convicted of a
crime.
Q. Have
you ever been convicted of any crime? A. No, sir.
Q. Now,
the taxicab chauffeurs of New York receive their permits to drive from the
Police Department, don't they? A. That is right.
Q. And
they renew them each and every month? A. Each and every year.
Q. Each
and every year? A. Yes.
Q. Do
they get a monthly ticket, as they formerly did, to put on the front of their
taxicab? A. Well, that is the insurance.
Q. That
is the insurance. That must be checked up monthly, once a month? A. Every
month, yes, sir.
Q. And
how often does the taxicab chauffeur report to the hack license, Police
Department? A. Well, they report there every three or four months for
inspection.
Q. And
you reported to the Bronx? A. That is right.
Q. Now,
for the purpose of this jury will you tell them how large the Bronx is, where
it begins? A. What do you mean by that?
Q. Well,
coming up, let's come up Third Avenue; part of Third Avenue, New York, is in
the Borough of Manhattan, correct? A. That is right.
Q. Where
does the Bronx begin at Third Avenue? A. Well, as soon as you get over the
bridge.
Q. Well,
what street is that? A. Well, 134th Street, if you went over the Third
Avenue Bridge.
[527]
Q. Now, then, the Bronx would extend to Spuyten Duyvil, would it not? A. Spuyten
Duyvil.
Q. On
one side. A. I don't know—
Q. That
is the Hudson River side. A. That is right.
Q. I
thought you knew the Bronx.
Mr.
Wilentz: I move that that be stricken out.
A. I
am very well acquainted with the Bronx.
Q. How
long have you lived in the Bronx? A. I have been living in the Bronx since
1927, I believe.
Q. Well,
you don't want to convey the impression here to this jury that the Borough of
the Bronx is something about 15 or 20 blocks or 30 blocks, do you? A. No.
Q. It
is a fact now, as I test your recollection, is it not, that one portion of the
Bronx runs to Spuyten Duyvil on the Hudson River? Do you know where Spuyten
Duyvil is? A. Yes, I do.
Q. Is
that not correct? A. That's right.
Q. Is
that not the border line of the Bronx? A. Spuyten Duyvil? I believe it is.
Q. Now
as you go up the other side of the Bronx, the east side of the Bronx, it
extends to Yonkers Line? A. Yes.
Q. Do
you know of Van Cortlandt Park? A. Yes.
Q. It
is a large area in the City of New York, is it not? A. Yes.
Q. You
have been driving in the Bronx how many years? A. Oh, I have been driving
in the Bronx about six or seven years.
Q. Now
on this particular day it had already been published in the newspapers, had it
not, in the Bronx News and other papers, Dr. Condon's connection with this
case? A. Not that I knew of at the time.
[528]
Q. That came out March 7th, 8th or 9th, didn't it? A. I don't know
anything about it.
Q. Don't
you read the papers? A. Not the Home
News at that time.
Q. Did
you read any papers about this case?
Mr.
Wilentz: When? A little louder, please. My objection, however, was to the fact
as to whether he ever read any papers—if counsel would not mind, he might make
it a little more definite as to time. A little louder.
Q. Had
you read about the Lindbergh case? A. After it happened, yes.
Q. Now
what day of the week was this you say this happened, the incident of the
envelope and the dollar? A. March 12th, 1932.
Q. What
day of the week? A. Saturday. Saturday evening.
Q. Sure
about that? A. Positive.
Q. Now
what time did you have your car out that day? A. I got out of the garage
about 4:30 that day.
Q. What
was your first call? A. I don't know.
Q. What
was your second call? A. I don't know.
Q. Describe
the passenger that you had for the first call? A. Pretty hard to do, Mr.
Reilly.
Q. Describe
the second? A. That's the same answer on that.
Q. Was
the first a man or was the second a woman or vice versa? A. Pretty hard to
say.
Q. Describe
the third passenger, if you had one? A. Can't do it, Mr. Reilly.
Q. Describe
the passenger just before you received the letter? A. A young man.
Q. Driven
from where to where? A. Mosholu Parkway and Jerome Avenue.
[529]
Q. Young man? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What
was the fare for that young man? A. Fifteen cents.
Q. As
you were returning back to your cab stand, you say this incident happened. A. That
is right.
Q. You
were coming down this parkway. A. Gun Hill Road.
Q. Gun
Hill Road. Where does that run? A. Well, that runs all the way over to the
Boston Post Road.
Q. Isn't
that in the middle of a parkway or near a parkway, Gun Hill Road? A. Well,
it is right opposite Van Cortlandt Park.
Q. It
runs from Van Cortlandt Park, through Van Cortlandt Park to where, to the
Boston Post Road? A. No, not the Boston Post Road.
Q. Does
it connect with the Boston Post Road, Gun Hill Road? A. Gun Hill? Let me
see. Yes, it does.
Q. Yes.
Now, as a matter of fact it is a connecting link between Van Cortlandt Parkway
and around the Bronx River Road, is it not, over to the Bronx Parkway? A. What
do you mean, the Bronx Parkway?
Q. Well,
I will withdraw it. Where do you say Gun Hill Road begins? A. Gun Hill
Road begins at right from Van Cortlandt Park.
Q. Van
Cortlandt Park? A. That is right.
Q. Is
that the left hand side, the North River side of Van Cortlandt Park? A. That
is right.
Q. Now,
Van Cortlandt Park, for the benefit of the jury, is a park that extends at
least three and a half or four miles up Van Cortlandt Avenue, is it not? A. Van
Cortlandt Avenue?
Q. To
the Yonkers line. A. That is right.
Q. And
begins at the bridge across the Hudson River. A. That is right.
[530]
Q. As you come under the elevated, is that correct? A. That is right.
Q. Now,
over to the right, miles away begins—A. Gun Hill Road.
Q. Gun
Hill Road is in the middle and connects, doesn't it? A. No, it begins
right from the park.
Q. It
begins on the right hand side—or the left hand side, of Van Cortlandt Park,
doesn't it? A. Yes.
Q. It
begins near the old George Washington Headquarters; do you know where that is,
in Van Cortlandt Park? A. Yes, that is right.
Q. Yes.
Now, on the far side of Van Cortlandt Park are these roads which run into the different
parkways—Boston Post Road and the other parkways which extend up into
Westchester. Correct? A. That is right.
Q. And
Gun Hill Road is the connecting link between those two? A. Not that far.
Q. Well,
you can ride through? A. That is right.
Q. And
you were riding through it that night. A. That is right.
Q. Now,
at what portion of that Gun Hill Road do you say a man waved to you? A. Knox
Place in Gun Hill Road.
Q. All
right. Was there anybody with you? A. No, sir.
Q. What
time at night? A. Between the hour of 7:45 and 8:30.
Q. Well,
that is three-quarters of an hour, isn't it? A. That is; yes, sir.
Q. Now—
By
the Court:
Q. And
what day was that, that this man waved to you? A. March 12th.
[531]
The Court: Pardon me.
Mr.
Reilly: Yes.
By
Mr. Reilly:
Q. On
a Saturday night, you say? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Between
half past seven— A. 7:45 and 8:30.
Q. 7:45
and half past eight? A. That is right.
Q. Now,
of course, Van Cortlandt Park on a Saturday night in March at 7:45 is dark,
isn't it? A. It was at that time.
Q. Yes.
A. Yes.
Q. And
all that area is dark except wherever there is a park light? A. That is
right.
Q. There
are no traffic lights in there? A. No.
Q. No
reds, greens, stops or anything else? A. No, sir.
Q. So
that when you are coming through you can come through on the loop, can't you? A. That
is right.
Q. Were
you coming through on the loop at a pretty fast rate? A. Yes, I was. I
wouldn't say too fast.
Q. Well,
you were coming back to your stand? A. I was going back to my stand, yes.
Q. And
looking for more work? A. That is right.
Q. And
what did the man do? Suddenly jump out of the bushes? A. No, he did not.
Q. What?
A. He came running through from Knox Place.
Mr.
Wilentz: A little louder, please.
The
Witness: He came running from Knox Place, with his hand raised.
[532]
Q. Well, where he came from on Knox Place, could he see a car coming
towards him? A. I don't know.
Q. He
didn't know you were coming along, did he? A. I don't know how he ever
came running to me.
Q. You
were just coming along? A. That is right.
Q. And
he was running towards you? A. That is right.
Q. No
expectation on your part of seeing anybody there at all to you? A. I was
surprised to get a hail that way.
Q. You
got a hail and stopped? A. That is right.
Q. And
of course you stopped under the great big arc light; is that correct? A. Yes,
sir.
Q. Yes.
Brighter than this, wasn't it? A. Well, it was an arc light. You know what
a street light is.
Q. Now,
where in Gun Hill Road is there any kind of a light like this? A. On the southwest
corner, Knox Place.
Q. It
is on a pole, isn't it? A. Yes, sir.
Q. An
ordinary park light? A. It is a street light.
Q. Yes.
An ordinary street light? A. Street light.
Q. In
a park? A. Yes, sir.
Q. In
the Van Cortlandt Park section? A. That is right.
Q. Right?
A. It is opposite the park, the street light.
Q. Yes.
It is opposite the park, bordering on the park? A. Yes.
Q. Now,
how was the man dressed? A. He had on a brown double breasted overcoat and
a brown soft hat.
Q. Peaked
hat, fedora hat? A. Felt hat.
[533]
Q. Felt hat? A. Felt hat.
Q. Pulled
it down or pulled it back? A. Pulled it back.
Q. Pulled
it back? A. Turned up in the front.
Q. Oh,
yes, turned up in front. A. Turned up in front, that is right.
Q. It
wasn't down like the way men wear them at all? A. No, no, sir.
Q. But
he had folded his back? A. He didn't fold it, but that is the custom of
that hat that he wore.
Mr.
Wilentz: Just a minute. I move that that be stricken out, the reference to the
way the men wear it. My recollection is that I have seen many men wear them
that way.
Mr.
Reilly: Now, I didn't ask you to testify. You would make an excellent witness.
Mr.
Reilly: Now, I didn't ask you to testify, General. You would make an excellent
witness.
Mr.
Wilentz: Now, my objection still stands notwithstanding the compliment.
The
Court: You want to press your objection, Attorney General.
Mr.
Wilentz: Yes, if your Honor please, that portion of it—
The
Court: Let the record be read, I will see.
(The
reporter read the question: “Q. Folded back? A. Turned up in front.
Q. [534] Oh, yes, turned up in front? A. Turned up in front, that is
right. Q. It wasn't down like the way the men wear them at all? A. No,
no, sir.”)
Mr.
Wilentz: I object to that part of the question, the way the men wear them, if
your Honor please.
The
Court: Oh, I think I will allow it to stand.
A. Well—
Q. Now,
just a moment. A. I—
Q. Was
it a hat such as I hold in my hand? A. Can I see the hat, Mr. Reilly?
Q. I
don't mean about the make, I mean was it a soft hat like that, a Fedora hat?
(Exhibiting hat to witness.) A. It was turned up a little more than that.
Q. It
wasn't a derby? A. No.
Q. And
it wasn't a cap? A. No.
Q. It
was a soft hat? A. Soft hat.
Q. And
it had a front on it like this? A. No, it was turned up more.
Q. Well,
it didn't have it up like that, did it? (Indicating by bending brim of hat
against the crown.) A. Well, I can explain it to you, if you give me the
hat back again. It was turned up with a seam like that, all the way around
(witness indicates by bending the brim back a little.)
Q. A
bevel edge, is that what you mean, a beveled edge? A. Yes, something like
that.
Q. A
beveled edge hat, right? A. That is it.
Q. Did
he have glasses on? A. Who?
Q. The
man? A. No, he did not.
Q. Did
you have yours on? A. Yes, sir.
[535]
Q. Are you near-sighted? A. Well, evenings, I am, yes.
Q. Evenings
you are near-sighted, is that right? A. Yes.
Q. This
was in the evening? A. Yes
Q. Now,
the man reached in his pocket—if I am wrong, stop me—which pocket did he reach
in and get this note? A. The right hand pocket.
Q. Did
he have any rings on his hands? A. I don't know.
Q. You
did not notice? A. I didn't notice.
Q. Did
you notice his hands? A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. Well,
he had hands, did he not? A. He must have.
Q. What
do you mean he must have, were you not looking at him? A. Yes, he had
hands.
Q. He
gave you his right hand? A. That is right.
Q. Now
will you show me—if I may have this blotter for a second—will you show me how
he handed you this note from your pocket? A. I don't quite remember how he
handed it to me, but he handed it to me.
Mr.
Wilentz: Please repeat the answer.
The
Witness: I don't know how he handed it to me, the exact way he gave me the
envelope, but I know he handed me the envelope.
By
Mr. Reilly:
Q. Where
did he get the dollar bill, from, the other pocket? A. The same pocket he
had the envelope in.
Q. He
reached in twice and changed the envelope from the one hand to the other,
reached in again [536] after asking you some questions about this address and
produced a dollar bill, is that correct? A. He gave me the envelope first,
and then just before he walked to the rear of my cab, he gave me the dollar.
Q. Well,
did he not give you the dollar and the envelope at the same time? A. No,
he did not.
Q. Did
you tell him how much it would cost him? A. He asked me how much it would
cost to get there.
Q. What
did you say? A. I told him about fifty cents.
Q. You
did not tell us that before, did you? A. I may have forgot it.
Q. Anything
else you have forgotten? A. (No answer.)
Q. Is
there? A. Well not that I can remember.
Q. When
you said “It will cost you fifty cents,” did he say anything about the balance
of the dollar? A. No, he did not.
Q. Didn't
he say “Here is half a dollar for a tip”? A. No.
Q. Did
you ask what the balance was for? A. I did not.
Q. You
took it for granted that was what it was for? A. He walked right to the
rear of my cab.
Q. But
you saw his hands, were they large hands? A. I didn't take notice of his
hands.
Q. But
you saw his hands? A. I only saw the right hand he gave me.
Q. Right
hand. Bare, like mine? A. I wouldn't say it was bare or covered. I didn't
take notice to it.
Q. You
weren't looking at anything but the dollar bill? A. That's it.
Q. And
that was in his hand? A. And the envelope.
Q. And
the envelope. How many times have you gone over this story? A. What story?
Q. The
story you are telling on the stand here [537] now? A. How many times?
Q. Have
you told this story over and over again, 5-20 times? A. About that.
Q. Who
suggested to you that you should answer “I don't remember whether his hand was
covered or not”? A. Nobody ever said anything to me.
Q. You
won't say his hand was not covered and you won't say it was covered, will you? A. I
didn't take notice at the time.
Q. You
know, don't you, that if his hand wasn't covered, that the imprint of his
fingermarks were on the envelope he gave you, right? A. I don't know.
Q. You
don't know anything about that? Nobody ever told you anything about that or to
be careful about that, did they? A. No, sir, nobody said anything to me.
Q. Did
you come down here today or yesterday with Inspector Sullivan of the New York
City Police? A. No, sir.
Q. Do
you know him? A. I never met Inspector Sullivan.
Q. Never
have seen him? A. Never have seen him.
Q. Well,
you have met Inspector Lyons of the Bronx, haven't you? A. Inspector Lyons
is not from the Bronx.
Q. Where
is he from? A. Downtown, Greenwich Street.
Q. How
do you know? How long do you know him? A. I only met Inspector Lyons once.
Q. Where?
A. In Greenwich Street Police Station.
Q. Never
saw him in the Bronx? A. Never.
Q. Weren't
you in the Bronx County Court? A. Oh, yes, that's right.
Q. Yes,
you were talking to him there? A. Yes, that's right.
[538]
Q. So you did see him up in the Bronx? A. Yes, I did.
Q. Haven't
a very good memory, have you? A.I have a pretty good memory.
Q. You
think you have?
Mr.
Wilentz: I move that be stricken out.
Q. Now
what other detectives or police officers do you know in the Bronx? A. That
I know of through the case?
Q. Whether
they are in the case or otherwise, what other detectives do you know in the
Bronx? Do you know Lieutenant Finn? A. I have only met him through the
case.
Q. I
don't care whether you know him through the case. You know him.
Mr.
Wilentz: Please answer the question whether counsel cares or not and answer it
loud.
Q. You
know him, don't you? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And
you know the detectives in your precinct? A. No, I don't.
Q. Where
did you check in every three months? A. I haven't had a cab for over two
years.
Q. I
am talking now back in March, 1932. Where did you check in, Bathgate Avenue? A. I
didn't have a cab at the time.
Q. Well,
when you were driving you had to check in every now and then? A. No, I did
not.
Q. Where
did you renew your license? A. At the nearest police station.
Q. Yes,
where was that, to your house? A. Nearest to my house.
Q. Where
was it, Bathgate Avenue? A. No, that was Westchester Square.
[539]
Q. Westchester Square up near Yonkers? A. No.
Q. So
that when this man gave you the note you started off, is that right? A. Not
when he gave me the note.
Q. Well,
after he waved his hand, right? A. That's right.
Q. And
you had no gloves on, did you? A. I don't remember whether I did or not.
Q. Are
you in the habit of driving the car with gloves? A. Without gloves.
Q. It
is a fact that as soon as you rang Dr. Condon's doorbell he came and answered
the door? A. That's right.
Q. Do
you know Dr. Condon? A. No, sir.
Q. Had
you ever seen any pictures of him? A. No, sir.
Q. Did
you ask him to identify himself before you gave him the note? A. No, sir.
Q. You
asked for Dr. Condon and handed it to this man, is that right? A. That's
right.
Q. When
were you next questioned about that? A. About a month and a half later.
Q. Where?
A. Jersey State Police.
Q. At
the Jersey State Police? A. Yes, sir.
Q. During
the month and a half did you tell anybody? A. No, sir.
Q. About
this note? A. No, sir.
Q. Did
you give Dr. Condon your name and address? A. Yes, sir.
Q. He
asked for it? A. Well, Dr. Condon—
Q. Did
he ask for it, that is what I asked. A. He didn't.
Q. Were
you driving taxicabs during that month and a half after this note? A. Right
along, yes, sir.
Mr.
Wilentz: A little louder, please.
[540]
The Witness: Yes, sir.
Q. Can
you tell me anybody you had in your cab the 13th of March? A. No, sir.
Q. Can
you describe anybody you had in your cab St. Patrick's Day? A. No, sir.
Q. The
17th of March? A. No, sir.
Q. Can
you give me a description of anybody that ever rode with you during the month
of March, 1932, except this description that you have of the defendant? A. No,
sir.
Q. Nobody?
A. No, sir.
Q. Can
you give me a description of anybody that rode with you in February? A. No,
sir.
Q. How
soon after you saw the State Police in April, 1932, did you apply for relief? A. I
applied for it, I believe, around that time.
Q. Is
there any member of your family in the Police Department? A. No, sir.
Q. Did
you ever study for the Police Department? A. No, sir.
Q. Did
you ever study for any public position? A. Yes, sir.
Q. What?
A. Chauffeur.
Q. To
what? City of New York chauffeur? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did
you take the City Civil Service examination? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Are
you on the list? A. No, sir.
Q. Did
you pass it? A. No, sir.
Q. When
did you take it? A. 1921.
Q. But
not since 1932? A. No, sir.
Q. You
haven't taken any examination since then? A. No, sir.
Q. Have
you been promised any position by anybody? A. No, sir.
Q. How
much are you receiving a day for coming here? A. I am not receiving
anything.
[541]
Q. How much do you anticipate?
Mr.
Wilentz: I object to that, if your Honor please.
Mr.
Reilly: I think it goes to his credibility.
The
Court: Well, I suppose he naturally expects that he will get the legal fees, if
there is such a thing.
Mr.
Reilly: Well, he may have been offered something else.
The
Court: Well, you may ask him if he has been offered something else.
Q. Have
you been offered anything else? A. No, sir.
Q. What
do you expect?
Mr.
Wilentz: I object to the question, if your Honor please, as to what he expects,
as not being material to this cause. He has not been offered anything.
The
Court: I am inclined to sustain the objection, Mr. Reilly.
Mr.
Reilly: May I have my exception? The Court: Take your exception.
(Exception
allowed, and same is signed and sealed accordingly.)
(s.
S.) THOMAS W. TRENCHARD, Judge.
Q. What
time did you get to Dr. Condon's [542] house? A. Well, between the hour of
7:45 and 8:30.
Q. How
many times have you seen Dr. Condon since? A. Twice.
Q. Where?
A. At his home, at the Bronx Grand Jury room.
Q. When
did you see him at his home? A. March 12th, 1932.
Q. After
that? A. Why, in May; in May—16th or i7th, at the Bronx Grand
Jury.
Q. Not
between— A. No, sir.
Q. May
16th or 17th, what year? A. 1932.
Q. 1932?
A. Yes.
Q. Who
sent for you to come to the Bronx Grand Jury? A. Why, I don't know the
detective's name.
Q. You
didn't appear—
Mr.
Wilentz: I didn't hear the answer. (Answer read by the reporter.)
Q. You
didn't appear before any Grand Jury? A. Yes, I did.
Q. In
March—in May, 1932? A. No. May, in May, 16th, or in May 16th or 17th,
1932.
Q. 1932?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Have
you seen Dr. Condon since? A. No, sir.
Q. Sure
about that? A. Positive.
Mr.
Wilentz: What is the answer? I can't hear it.
(Answer
read by the reporter.)
Mr.
Reilly: You may inquire.
[543]
Re-Direct Examination by Mr. Wilentz:
Q. Counsel
asked you whether or not you had the fare that you had prior to Mr.
Hauptmann—whether you read the second fare and the third fare, and he has
inquired as to other dates. Now, on the day that the defendant hailed you, was
there anybody else that gave you a note to deliver, or was that the only note
you received that day? A. That is the only note that I received that day.
Q. Nobody
else gave you any note that day to deliver? A. No, sir.
Q. Have
you ever gotten any note from anybody else to deliver to Dr. John F. Condon,
Decatur Avenue? A. No, sir.
Q. Now,
shortly after you delivered that note, that is to say, within a few days, I
suppose you read in the papers about Dr. Condon, did you not? A. No, sir,
I did not.
Q. Well,
when did you finally read about it? A. April l0th or 11th.
Q. Somewhere
in April? A. April l0th or 11th in 1932.
Q. So
that is to say within a month? A. Within a month.
Q. Now,
the question about your meeting Inspector Lyons and other police officials,
have you met these officials since your experience which you related about
today with reference to Hauptmann or did you know them before? A. After.
Q. So
that on account of and since the time that you took the note from Hauptmann you
have become acquainted with and met the various officials in the various states
that are working on the Lindbergh case. A. That is right.
Q. You
Met the State Police of New Jersey. A. Yes, sir.
[544]
Q. You met the police of New York. A. Yes, sir.
Q. You
met the Federal detectives. A. Yes, sir.
Q. You
have met the Attorney General of New Jersey. A. Yes, sir.
Q. And
you have met the distinguished gentleman Mr. Reilly, today, of the defense. A. Yes,
sir.
Q. You
have met all these people on account of and since the case. A. That is
right.
Q. Whenever
the police wanted you and summoned you, you came. A. Yes, sir.
Q. You
have been summoned here and asked to come by the State of New Jersey to testify
as you did before Hauptmann was arrested in the Bronx, is that so?
Mr.
Reilly: I object to that. It is very improper.
Mr.
Wilentz: Your Honor please, let me suggest to your Honor—
Mr.
Reilly: It is leading and improper.
The
Court: It is a leading question, and the witness is your witness, Mr. Attorney
General and my suggestion to you is that you modify your question.
By
Mr. Wilentz:
Q. Prior
to the arrest of Bruno Richard Hauptmann, had you been called upon by the
police to come to various places for questioning for the purpose of providing
such information as you had?
Mr.
Reilly: I object to it as incompetent, irrelevant and immaterial, whether he
has or has not been called prior to the arrest of this defendant.
[545]
The Court: I am inclined to think that the door has been opened by yourself in
respect to such an examination. I think that I will allow the Attorney General
to ask the question.
Mr.
Reilly: Well, I can only bow to your Honor's ruling and ask for an exception.
The
Court: Take your exception.
(Exception
allowed, and the same is signed and sealed accordingly.)
(s.
S.) THOMAS W. TRENCHARD, Judge.
Mr.
Wilentz: Please read the question.
(The
reporter read the question as follows: “Prior to the arrest of Bruno Richard
Hauptmann had you been called upon by the police to come to various places for
questioning for the purpose of providing such information as you had?”)
By
Mr. Wilentz:
Q. In
the Lindbergh case. A. Yes, sir.
Q. Since
that time you have again been called, have you not? A. Yes, sir.
Q. To
various places? A. Yes, sir.
Q. And
it is in pursuance of those calls from the various governmental agencies,
whether it is State, National, New York or New Jersey that you are here today,
isn't that the fact? A. Yes, sir.
Mr.
Wilentz: That is all. Will counsel for defense join with me for a little recess
of ten minutes or so?
[546]
Mr. Reilly: Always.
The
Court: What are you suggesting, Mr. Attorney General?
Mr.
Wilentz. A ten-minute recess, your Honor please, for the sake of the jury and
everybody.
The
Court: We will take a recess now for ten minutes.
(Whereupon
at 3:12 o'clock p. m. a ten-minute recess was taken.)
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